PRIVATE BUSINESS

Broads Authority Bill

Ordered,
	That the promoters of the Broads Authority Bill, which was originally introduced to this House on 23rd January 2007, should have leave to suspend any further proceedings on the Bill in order to proceed with it, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, according to the provisions of Private Business Standing Order 188A ( Suspension of Bills).— [ First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Oral Answers to Questions

SCOTLAND

The Secretary of State was asked—

Digital Switchover

John Robertson: What steps the Government are taking to raise awareness of digital switchover in Scotland; and when he last discussed this matter with Ofcom and Digital UK.

David Cairns: The Secretary of State recently met Ofcom and I met Paul Hughes, Digital UK's national manager for Scotland, over the summer. In addition, I will address a conference in Scotland next month on the opportunities presented by digital switchover. Book early to avoid disappointment.

John Robertson: The Minister knows that there are currently teething problems in Whitehaven, especially with people not knowing about the switchover. My constituency has an above average number of elderly people, whose television is not a luxury but a necessity. What contact has my hon. Friend made with, for example, Glasgow city council, the Royal National Institute of Blind People, Citizens Advice Scotland and the electricity boards to ensure that information is issued especially to the elderly about the changeover?

David Cairns: My hon. Friend mentioned Whitehaven, which is the first part of the UK to switch over. That will happen tomorrow. I was not aware of the teething problems that he mentioned. When I last examined the matter, I was told that awareness in Whitehaven was 100 per cent., which sounded suspiciously North Korean, but I am prepared to believe that the percentage is high. He is right that the key to it all is public awareness. No single organisation—be it Digital UK or the BBC—will achieve that on its own. We need to work together—the councils, the Scottish Executive and the registered social landlords, who also have a role to play—so that, when the scheme is extended throughout Scotland, beginning in Borders in 2008 and in the rest of Scotland in 2010, there is awareness of it, ensuring that people know that switchover will happen and know the steps that they have to take. In addition, a help scheme will be in place for the elderly and vulnerable people to whom my hon. Friend referred, so that they do not lose out on that opportunity.

Robert Smith: The help scheme will not kick in until close to switchover. What is happening now to develop new handsets for the visually impaired, those with disabilities who have difficulty accessing digital TV, and those, mainly the elderly, who may need to buy a new TV before the help scheme kicks in in their area but also need access to digital advice now so that they do not miss out when the switchover happens?

David Cairns: That is precisely why Digital UK appointed a national manager for Scotland, Paul Hughes, and why I met him earlier. I pay tribute to him for raising the issue of the handset for people with disabilities. After he prompted me, I spoke to Vicki Nash of Ofcom Scotland about the matter. I also discussed it with the Scottish Consumer Council because it is a genuine concern. Ofcom Scotland has conducted some research on how useable the handsets are, the results of which are being fed back into the former Department of Trade and Industry—now the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform—taskforce on the matter. As I said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson), it is important that no one loses out, especially those who have visual or other disabilities.

Rosemary McKenna: Does my hon. Friend agree that digital television provides opportunities, especially for my constituents through North Lanarkshire local authority, which provides information and tremendous services? Will he encourage other local authorities to conduct a similar exercise?

David Cairns: My hon. Friend is right. Indeed, she pre-empts excerpts of my keynote speech next month. North Lanarkshire has proposed a creative and imaginative scheme, which is a way to disseminate information throughout the area so that everybody knows the services to which they are entitled and that they can access. It is an excellent programme, which I thoroughly recommend to other local authority areas, not only in Scotland but throughout the UK.

Ministerial Meetings

Greg Hands: Whether the frequency and format of his meetings with the First Minister have changed since May.

Des Browne: I understand that the frequency and format of my meetings with the First Minister are consistent with those of our predecessors. I have also had a series of informal meetings with the First Minister. For example, I met him as recently as this Saturday when we watched Scotland's magnificent victory over Ukraine at Hampden Park.

Greg Hands: What recent discussions has the Secretary of State held with the First Minister about Glasgow's Commonwealth games bid? What advice has he given the First Minister, who will shortly lead a delegation of 46 members to Sri Lanka to hear the announcement? Does he agree with Glasgow city councillor John Mason, who says that the size of the delegation is "very excessive"? Will the right hon. Gentleman join the delegation?

Des Browne: I have no plans to join the delegation. The appropriateness of the size of the delegation will be determined by the outcome of the lobbying. If Glasgow—as I expect that it will—wins the Commonwealth games, we will look back at the size of the delegation, and if every member has made a contribution to that appropriate outcome, we will celebrate them. It is not in my gift to determine who goes—I have no expertise in such lobbying; perhaps the hon. Gentleman does. If so, he should let Glasgow have the benefit of it. We all look forward to a successful bid. I am sure that he will cheer as loudly as the rest of us when Glasgow makes a successful bid for the Commonwealth games.

Gordon Banks: I wonder whether my right hon. Friend will take the opportunity, next time he meets the First Minister, to remind him that my constituents in Ochil and South Perthshire expect to see him working co-operatively and constructively in Scotland's interests, not using the opportunity for party political grandstanding.

Des Browne: I say to my hon. Friend, and I have said in the past, that my interest as the Secretary of State for Scotland is primarily in making devolution work for the people of Scotland. I am in absolutely no doubt that it will work in the interests of the people of Scotland only if I personally have a constructive relationship with the First Minister, which I believe I do, and if he and his Ministers develop constructive relationships with my colleagues. Some of the activity of the past week suggests that, in order for us to do that, they might need to resist the temptation to develop confrontation out of what appeared to be co-operation.

Angus Robertson: With that good spirit in mind, will the Secretary of State endeavour in his next meeting with the First Minister to join him, the National Farmers Union Scotland and the Scottish Government in battling for Scottish farmers and Scottish crofters? Will he lend his weight to the campaign for the UK Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to live up to its responsibility and fully cover all welfare and compensation payments arising from foot and mouth?

Des Browne: Like everyone else in the House—and everyone else in Scotland—I have enormous sympathy for farmers and the plight that they face. I am among the many hon. Members who have constituents who are directly affected by those circumstances. Our concern for them is heightened by the fact that the events that generated those circumstances were well beyond their control. They were the victims. The hon. Gentleman will know from his colleagues in Scotland that Scotland Office Ministers have been working closely with ministerial colleagues on a range of issues that arose out of the outbreak of foot and mouth, from hours for haulage drivers all the way to support for farmers. Indeed, I met my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs this morning to discuss that very issue.
	I commend the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) for leading a genuinely cross-party initiative and for engaging constructively. I understand that he will be meeting farmers later today with the Secretary of State. He is to be commended for that. Perhaps the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) and some of the members of his party could take a leaf out of that book, by working in co-operation and not in confrontation.

David Hamilton: Next time my right hon. Friend meets the First Minister, will he raise the question of our armed forces returning to the UK? If our service personnel return to an English local authority, they receive priority treatment through the health service, but in Scotland they do not. Will my right hon. Friend raise with the First Minister the important question of how our service personnel are treated in Scotland?

Des Browne: My hon. Friend may well have uncovered an application of what I thought was a cross-UK policy to give veterans priority in relation to health service treatment. I suspect that that is not the only area where there are differences between the rest of the United Kingdom and Scotland in relation to veterans' access to public services. For example, he will know from the work that he has been doing on the Select Committee on Defence that we are making quite significant progress here in England, through my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government among others, on removing some of the impediments that armed forces personnel face in accessing social housing. Those are of course challenges that the Scottish Executive face, too. I am sure that, with the encouragement of my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Hamilton) and others, they will be up to those challenges, but there are still gaps in their provision of service.

Alistair Carmichael: May I impress upon the Secretary of State the importance of making communication work between London and Edinburgh? If communication between his Department and the Scottish Government in Edinburgh does not work, the devolutionary settlement will not work, and that can lead in only one direction. The people who will suffer in the meantime are those whom we are supposed to represent here, such as those in the Scottish livestock industry, to which he has referred. I am having to take representatives of the industry, along with people from other parties, to meet the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs this evening, simply because relations between the two Departments have broken down.

Des Browne: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the parties to a successful devolutionary settlement, at Government level, must be able to work with each other openly and with confidence. Undoubtedly, some of those currently in that partnership appear to have something to learn about such work, and about the degree of trust necessary; I am certain that they will learn. On support for the livestock industry, I have commended the hon. Gentleman on his action, and I assure him that he will find support from Ministers in the Scotland Office. We are doing everything in our power to ensure that the issue is resolved, not only in the best interests of the farming community but in those of the welfare of animals.

John McFall: Instead of constantly picking a fight with Westminster, the policy-light and heavily aggressive Scottish National party Administration in Edinburgh should provide solutions to the everyday problems faced by our constituents, whether in health or education, and help to make Scotland a better place. Does the Secretary of State agree that the £30 billion comprehensive spending review settlement for Scotland—which, incidentally, is double what Scotland received in 1999—is a good deal for Scotland, and that enough policy measures can be implemented with that generous budget?

Des Browne: I agree with my right hon. Friend that the Scottish Executive have at their disposal a budget that, on any measure, is twice what Donald Dewar had when devolved Government took responsibility for areas of public policy delivery. More immediately, the Scottish people are watching exactly what the minority Administration in Scotland deliver. They promise announcements: by my calculation, they have told us that about 60 of their policy promises have been delayed pending the generous settlement that they have received. Their manifesto made several very important promises, and they ought to know that the people of Scotland are watching. Those who were voted in to keep an eye on them in government will bring to the attention of the Scottish people their failure to deliver, I suspect, on every single one of those promises.

David Mundell: We heard today, and in the last Scottish questions on 10 July, the Secretary of State's commitment to co-operate. At the beginning of this term of the Scottish Parliament, the new First Minister said that under his stewardship the Scottish Parliament would be about compromise, concession, intelligent debate and mature discussion. The Secretary of State will accept, however, that the people of Scotland have not seen that over the past two weeks, and that they expect and deserve better from both their Governments. Does he now accept that the memorandum of understanding on managing the relationships between the UK Government and devolved Administrations is no longer fit for purpose? Does he agree that the Secretary of State for Justice should review it as soon as possible?

Des Browne: The memorandum of understanding to which the hon. Gentleman refers says, in particular, that most contacts between the Government and devolved Administrations
	"should be carried out on a bilateral or multi-lateral basis, between departments which deal on a day-to-day basis with the issues at stake".
	That is how the UK Government want things to work in practice. There is a long record of such arrangements working in practice, benefiting not only the people of Scotland but those of Northern Ireland, Wales and London. There is no reason why we cannot return to that basis, within the context of the existing memorandum of understanding. We ought to be able to get to a situation, within the existing memorandum of understanding, in which not only can the words of co-operation be used but the deeds of co-operation are manifest.

David Mundell: On foot and mouth compensation, surely the whole episode was entirely predictable as soon as the draft statement by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs was changed. Why did not the Secretary of State for Scotland move to manage that situation? Will he tell the House when he knew that foot and mouth compensation had been offered by DEFRA, and when he knew that the terms of that offer had been changed? Will he clarify newspaper reports that the Minister of State has been charged with running round Whitehall Departments to tell them now not to give information to Scotland?

Des Browne: The Minister of State has been charged with no such responsibility. The hon. Gentleman ought not to believe everything that he reads in the newspaper, even if he has briefed the newspaper himself—indeed, especially if he has briefed the newspaper himself: that might be a reason for not believing what is in it.
	In relation to the issue—[Hon. Members: "When?"] Perhaps Conservative Front Benchers would have the good manners at least to wait until the question has been answered before deciding that it has not been answered.
	At no point was I aware that an offer had been made and withdrawn, because no such offer was ever made and withdrawn. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has made that absolutely clear. He has personally made it public that he played no part in the sort of behaviour in which he was accused of taking part, and in withdrawing an offer that had been made.
	All of us who have been in government—and there are still some Members on the Conservative Benches who have experience in government—know fine well about discussions on access to the reserve. If the scale and nature of a bid is appropriate to a reserve that is held for particular purposes, there will be arguments about access to it, but all who have been in government know full well that that involves a debate with the Treasury. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made clear, we shall be able to see whether it supports such a bid as the situation evolves.

Post Office Closures

Jo Swinson: What recent discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on post office closures in Scotland.

David Cairns: I have regular such discussions with ministerial colleagues. The Minister of State for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-East (Mr McFadden), recently visited Dumfries and Galloway, where he saw different methods of postal services provision working well in rural areas.

Jo Swinson: Under this Labour Government, a quarter of post offices in the west of Scotland have already closed. Next week, when the public consultation starts, we shall learn which of the remaining 300 will face the axe. Does the Minister think that the consultation will be meaningful? Does he expect that if the public voice strong opposition, a significant number of the post offices earmarked for closure will be granted a reprieve?

David Cairns: As I have told the hon. Lady in the past, the Government are firmly committed to maintaining a viable and sustainable post office network. That is why we have already invested £2 billion and are investing a further £1.7 billion. As the hon. Lady knows, however, the Post Office is subject to all sorts of pressures, and there are all sorts of reasons why individual post office branches must close. The hon. Lady found that out for herself recently when she campaigned to save a branch, only to discover that the reason for its being threatened with closure was that the local Liberal Democrat council was selling the building that housed it.

Anne Moffat: Does my hon. Friend agree that if post offices are to serve communities across Scotland, it is imperative for account to be taken of the length of the journeys that people must undertake in order to visit them?

David Cairns: My hon. Friend is entirely right, but I would go further: the problem is not just the length of the journey but the impediments in the way of it. I have encountered examples in which a journey described as being only about half a mile involved a motorway which prevented people from travelling the half-mile. That is why the consultation will consider factors such as the placing of motorways, as well as bus routes, sea crossings, rivers, mountains and so forth. All those factors must be taken into consideration. We are committed to ensuring that people can still have access to postal services, because we believe in the value of the Post Office. That is why we are investing so heavily in maintaining a post office network.

Ben Wallace: The official consultation period shows that there are a mere 12 weeks between the announcement of the proposals to the public and their implementation. The Post Office seems reluctant to engage in public meetings throughout the process in the areas concerned. As the largest stakeholder, will the Government ensure that Post Office management face the public in those areas and answer their questions? Will they also ensure that the benchmark used in deciding which branches are closed relates to whether people view a post office as a necessity rather than a convenience?

David Cairns: The hon. Gentleman is right to this extent: there must be a proper and transparent process. People need to see the criteria against which decisions on individual post offices will be made. We are not adopting a purely commercial stance on this issue; if we were, the Post Office would be decimated not only in Scotland but throughout the UK. Instead, we are capping a maximum number of closures, and we are continuing with sustained investment. I must also say that this transparent, open and sustained programme of post office closures stands in stark contrast to the 3,500 post office closures when the hon. Gentleman's party was in power, when there was no proper management, no proper investment, no proper strategy and no proper help and support for the communities left bereft.

Child Poverty (Glasgow)

David Marshall: What recent estimate he has made of the number of children in the City of Glasgow area living in poverty.

Des Browne: The Scottish measurement of poverty unfortunately does not provide numbers for households in each local authority. In Scotland, however, the number of children living in relative poverty, after housing costs, has fallen from 330,000 in 1998-99 to 250,000 in 2005-06—a drop of 80,000.

David Marshall: As a regular visitor to my constituency, does my right hon. Friend agree that the statistics should be measured by local authority area? Is he aware that almost 33,000 grants for clothes and shoes for schoolchildren were made to needy families in Glasgow last year? That is an unacceptably high figure in this day and age. Will he therefore agree as a matter of urgency to meet the leaders of Glasgow city council and the Scottish Executive to discuss what additional resources can be made available to lift many more Glasgow children out of poverty and to give them a better chance of a decent life in future?

Des Browne: As my hon. Friend points out, I have occasion to be in his constituency the odd time, and I also pass through it. I commend him on his campaigning work for decades against poverty among his constituents. I have over the past 10 years witnessed a transformation of his constituency. Housing has been generated in greater numbers than I have ever seen before in a lifetime of being in and around it. I can also think of at least two shopping centres that have been developed, and a significant number of employment opportunities have recently been developing there. However, my hon. Friend is right to point out that, despite all that improvement and all the support from this Government to help people out of poverty through a number of measures, there is still a hard core of poverty in his constituency. That is a result of decades of neglect, principally by the Conservatives.
	I will be perfectly content to meet the leadership of Glasgow city council—I have done so on a number of occasions since I took up this post—and others, to ensure that resources and initiatives are appropriately directed into Glasgow, because it deserves the opportunity to continue to improve as it has done over the past decade.

Several hon. Members: rose —

Mr. Speaker: Order. So that the House knows what I am doing, that was a closed question about the city of Glasgow. I call Mr. Mark Pritchard.

Trade Links (Scotland/Malawi)

Mark Pritchard: What steps his Department is taking to foster trade links between Scotland and Malawi; and if he will make a statement.

David Cairns: The Scotland Office does not have a remit for developing international trade, but I am happy to report that UK Government spending on Malawi amounts to some £70 million. For the sake of completeness, I should add that the Scottish Executive's contribution to international development in Malawi is £3 million.

Mark Pritchard: Notwithstanding Scotland's close links to Malawi dating back to Dr. Livingstone, does the Minister share my concern that when the new chief of Blantyre—also known as the British high commissioner—was in charge of Scotland, albeit briefly, he set up a Scottish international aid charity and that that charity might be competing with, rather than complementing, the excellent and important work of the Department for International Development, which is, of course, a reserved matter?

David Cairns: If that were the case there would be a concern, but there is not a concern because DFID officials are working closely with Scottish Executive officials on that. I should point out that some 560 DFID officials work in East Kilbride, where a large part of the Department is based, and that extends Scotland's contribution to international aid and development. When I saw that this question had been tabled, I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would congratulate the Government on an 11 per cent. increase in international aid, reversing years of decline and cuts to the international aid budget under the last Tory Government, so that we are now well on the way to meeting our international obligations.

Employment Levels

Katy Clark: If he will make a statement on the most recent figures on levels of employment in Scotland.

Des Browne: The employment level in Scotland stands at 2.54 million, with the rate of employment at 76.7 per cent. The current employment level and rate are both at near historic levels.

Katy Clark: The Secretary of State is well aware of the huge improvement in employment throughout Scotland, but particularly in my constituency, since 1997. Indeed, 25 per cent. more people are now in work than in 1997. However, unemployment and low pay remain major problems in many parts of Scotland, particularly Ayrshire. What does the Secretary of State believe can further be done to improve employment levels, so that we reach full employment—our manifesto commitment—in Scotland?

Des Browne: As a fellow Ayrshire MP, I am well aware of the challenges that the economy of Ayrshire faces in sustaining and increasing employment. Given the systemic difficulties that Ayrshire has faced over a long period, the level of improvement over the past decade is nothing short of miraculous. However, none of us are entitled to rest on our laurels, and we will not achieve our objective of full employment, whatever that measure might be—against the accepted standards of a few decades ago, we are well past the benchmark that was set for any Government by economists—unless we sustain and maintain a stable economy, as we have been able to do, and unless we address the issues of skills, resources and economic development, with the co-operation and help, of course, of the Scottish Executive, who have the major responsibility in that regard. I have absolutely no doubt that, if we do more of what we have been doing in making work pay and encouraging people into work, we will achieve the objective that my hon. Friend and I share.

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

The Secretary of State was asked—

Home Information Packs

Andrew MacKay: What assessment has been made of the effect of the introduction of home information packs on the housing market.

Shailesh Vara: What recent assessment has been made of the effect of the introduction of home information packs on the housing market.

Yvette Cooper: Home information packs are proving to be fast to produce, and are providing the market with important early information. They have already proved a trigger to cuts in search costs. Estate agents have encouraged people to market early, in advance of HIPs, with predictable short-term impacts on the timing of listings. However, the overall market is currently affected by wider factors, such as attitudes to interest rates and uncertainty in the financial markets.

Andrew MacKay: Does the Minister not see that home information packs have harmed the housing market, and does she not realise that inspectors, whom she promised would earn up to £70,000 a year, will be lucky if they take home £10,000 this year? Are we not right to say that, when we return to office, we will scrap this ridiculous scheme?

Yvette Cooper: No, the right hon. Gentleman is not right. HIPs are already having an impact on search costs, for example. More than 80 local authorities have cut the cost of searches as a result of HIPs' introduction, some by more than £100. The right hon. Gentleman should admit to energy assessors and home inspectors across the country that his party's policy would put them all out of work, because he would abolish energy certificates altogether.

Shailesh Vara: Research carried out by the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors has found a direct link between the introduction of home information packs and the reduction in new instructions by a staggering 37 per cent. Is this the Minister's idea of bringing about stability in the housing market?

Yvette Cooper: Shock news! The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors opposes home information packs! It has been opposing HIPs and trying to block the introduction of energy certificates for a long time. It even introduced a court case to try to block them, which is tragic, because energy certificates are hugely important and provide vital information for people across the market. We know that new listings have been falling across the market since June—long before HIPs were introduced—and that there are other factors. For example and as most commentators would point out, buyers' decisions are perhaps currently the most significant factor in the market.

Andrew Miller: I do not know whether my right hon. Friend has had a chance to see this afternoon's  Evening Standard, which contains an article stating that Conservative Front Benchers have written to the Department's permanent secretary giving
	"formal notice that"
	this
	"project faces cancellation under the Tories."
	Will my right hon. Friend instruct the permanent secretary to keep that letter in safe keeping, so that we can bring it out when the Tories make a U-turn on this very good policy?

Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend can rest assured that the permanent secretary will be able to keep that letter in a drawer for a very long time indeed. Opposition Members should consider that, by opposing EPCs, they are opposing a measure about which Friends of the Earth has said that
	"without them, there is absolutely no hope of making significant progress on low-carbon homes and tackling climate change."
	EPCs are about providing important information to help consumers cut fuel bills and carbon emissions. They are something that we should support, not oppose in the way that Opposition Members are trying to do.

Clive Betts: Contrary to the vision of housing Armageddon that the Opposition predicted when HIPs were introduced, does not my right hon. Friend agree that we have seen no discernible impact on new properties coming on to the market? They have been introduced at a third of the cost, and without the lengthy delays caused by the shortage of inspectors predicted by the Opposition. Given the successful implementation of HIPs for three and four-bedroom properties, will my right hon. Friend consider how quickly she can introduce them for one and two-bedroom properties, as that would be a real help for first-time buyers? Will she also give further consideration to bringing in compulsory home condition reports, as they would make HIPs more effective in the future?

Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend makes some important points. We are working with a range of stakeholders in the industry, including Which?, about what the next steps should be. For example, we are looking at promoting e-conveyancing as part of our consideration of the wider issues to do with the buying and selling of homes. Back in May, we identified key issues to do with the number of inspectors in place, the impact of HIPs on the market, and how they could be implemented smoothly, and we will take a sensible decision about the timing of the roll-out in the light of those factors.

Grant Shapps: As yesterday's  Hansard shows, the Minister has been forced to admit that a mere 4 per cent. of those who have ordered HIPs have also ordered the optional home condition report. Is it not about time, therefore, that she came to the same conclusion as the public and scrapped HIPs in favour of the simple EPC system that operates in Northern Ireland?

Yvette Cooper: May I point out to the hon. Gentleman that EPCs have not been introduced in Northern Ireland? In fact, the Administration there are learning from our experience and from the measures that we have taken. Moreover, people in Northern Ireland will not benefit from the reduction in search costs already evident across the market here as a result of the introduction of HIPs.
	Opposition Members sound a bit like Chicken Licken in their belief that the sky is always falling. They said that HIPs would cost £1,000, take months to produce and increase council tax, but all of that has turned out be barmy nonsense. We need a sensible debate about how we take forward improvements to home buying and selling but, unfortunately, Opposition Members remain incapable of taking part in it.

Rob Marris: May I urge my right hon. Friend to look at what is happening in Denmark? In the UK, and especially in England and Wales, it takes something like 12 weeks to exchange contracts, and a third of transactions fall through. In contrast, the introduction in Denmark of the equivalent of HIPs caused the time for contract exchange to fall to seven days and reduced to almost zero the proportion of contracts falling through.

Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is right. Denmark was one of the first countries to introduce EPCs and HIPs, with the result that there have been very substantial improvements to the process of buying and selling homes there. We should learn from other countries' experiences and recognise the benefits that such reforms can bring to that process.

Sheltered Housing

John Leech: What assessment she has made of the level of satisfaction amongst older sheltered housing residents with floating support under supporting people.

Hazel Blears: Local communities know their areas best. That is why all decisions about how services are funded and monitored, including on satisfaction, are made at local level. It is central Government's role to provide support and funding, and that is precisely what we are doing. My Department is providing £1.7 billion to local authorities for the supporting people fund this year. That money allows 800,000 older people to live independently, and more older people are getting the help that they need. Between 2006 and 2007, the number of older people getting housing support went up by nearly 20,000.

John Leech: Does the Secretary of State accept that according to Age Concern many older people believe that the move to floating support has resulted in a second-class and fragmented service?

Hazel Blears: No, I do not accept that. Being able to be flexible in the way that supporting people funds are used means that we can use the money to best effect, so that it is not only people in sheltered housing who can get support but, increasingly, people in their own homes. As I said, we are helping 800,000 older people to live independently. The important thing is that the support is not tied to bricks and mortar; it is about assessing people's real needs and having the flexibility locally to meet those needs. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman wants many more older people to be helped irrespective of their tenure.

David Drew: But does my right hon. Friend accept that the process has added a level of complexity to the way in which most sheltered housing schemes work? They are tenanted and rented through local authorities or housing associations and the biggest problem is that the supporting people budget has not been the most stable one. Will she look at it again to ensure that older people have the security that they want and the stability of funding that they should expect?

Hazel Blears: Yes. Stability in funding is important, and I am sure my hon. Friend accepts that the amount of money that has gone into the fund has been very significant in recent years—£1.7 billion. The important thing is that local authorities should take into account the views of not just older people but the whole range of vulnerable people helped by the funding to ensure that services are tailored to the needs of those people. Built into the framework there is an absolute emphasis on making sure that the services are suitable for the often complex needs that supporting people funds are designed to meet.

Eric Pickles: I am surprised that the Secretary of State sounds so happy. Is it not the case that supporting people budgets have been slashed in recent years, largely because the Government underestimated the cost of provision, leaving councils to pick up the bill? The costs to councils of social care and support of the elderly are soaring, made worse by the NHS cuts that have shunted costs directly on to council bills. The Local Government Association issued a cross-party warning last week that council tax will be above the rate of inflation for the next three years. Does the Secretary of State share that assessment? Does she agree with it or is she still in denial?

Hazel Blears: Far from being in denial, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will accept that in many cases excellent Labour councils are providing more services. I am sure that the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Leech) is aware that his council in Manchester is a four-star local authority providing excellent services, with an excellent direction of travel. It is providing services to more older people this year than in the past. I have to tell the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) that, unfortunately, Conservative councils such as Hammersmith and Fulham and Suffolk county council have implemented significant cuts in support for older people. The contrast is absolutely obvious.

Social Housing

Gordon Banks: What plans the Government have to increase the supply of social housing.

Yvette Cooper: We are increasing investment in new social housing, and I can today announce more than £10 billion funding for the regional housing pot over the next three years, to invest in new social housing, new shared ownership housing and housing renewal. That is an increase of nearly 40 per cent. compared with the previous three years.

Gordon Banks: I thank my right hon. Friend for that announcement and congratulate her on making it in the House today. Is not it important that all communities in the United Kingdom build increasing amounts of social housing? Following the research that has enabled her to make her announcement today, what advice can she offer the devolved Administration in Scotland—unfortunately, there are no Members of devolved Administrations in the House today—that would be useful in devolved areas?

Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend makes an important point. As he knows, housing is a devolved matter. We know that throughout the country we have a growing ageing population, with more people living alone, which means that we need more homes and more affordable housing. That requires new investment, which cannot be provided if unfunded tax cuts are being proposed.

Andrew Stunell: What hope does the Minister offer the 330,000 families on the housing waiting list in London, or the 1.6 million families on the waiting list nationwide, of ever getting decent social housing? Is not it the case that it will take 35 years for those people to be taken off the list? With house prices still rising—the average is £400,000 in London—the chance of their ever having an affordable home is shrinking. Does not she accept that we need to increase dramatically the amount of social housing and affordable housing, and that the figures in the comprehensive spending review do not go nearly far enough towards achieving that?

Yvette Cooper: I agree that we need to build more social housing, more shared-ownership housing and more housing across the board, and that we need to raise more resources from planning gain to provide additional funding. We are putting in several billion pounds of additional funding over the next three years. It is important that we take a responsible approach to the public finances, and increases in public investment have to be paid for. For London, we are supporting a 27 per cent. increase in the regional funding over the next three years, in addition to extra help for people who want to move out of London to find more affordable housing.

Paul Truswell: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the acute shortage of social housing in Leeds, which has prompted the Leeds Tenants Federation to launch its "Right to Rent" campaign? Does she understand the federation's concern that Leeds is not sufficiently committed to providing more social housing or putting pressure on developers to deliver the proportion of affordable housing laid down in planning permissions? Will she examine these concerns?

Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend raises an important point. I know that there has been hostility from some on Leeds city council to supporting sufficient additional and affordable housing. Every council and every area needs to do more to support more affordable housing for their local communities. We are supporting a 32 per cent. increase in the funding for Yorkshire and Humberside, which will enable substantial increases in social housing and continued housing renewal to be supported. I urge Leeds city council to work with other housing associations and local developers to bid for that funding in order to support tenants in my hon. Friend's area.

Jacqui Lait: The social homebuy scheme is meant to help social tenants to buy or part-buy their rented homes, so why are only 78 of the 1,400 housing associations offering the scheme?

Yvette Cooper: The social homebuy scheme is a pilot scheme, as we have always said. The pilot concludes in March and we will then take decisions about how to take the scheme forward. It is right to examine different innovative ways to help more people on to the housing ladder and to help first-time buyers. I must say to Conservative Members that they cannot help first-time buyers if they are not prepared to back the building of the new homes that Britain needs.

Affordable Homes (Wirral, South)

Ben Chapman: What steps her Department is taking to provide affordable homes for people living in Wirral, South.

Iain Wright: In the housing Green Paper, we announced a 50 per cent. increase in investment for affordable homes of at least £8 billion over the next three years. Furthermore, the Housing Corporation is inviting local providers to bid for affordable homes investment.
	Wirral metropolitan borough council is working to make better use of public sector land assets, which has already enabled it to provide 270 additional affordable homes in one area. It is also reviewing its affordable housing policy.

Ben Chapman: Does my hon. Friend accept that that demonstrates that the policy of restricting house building in parts of Wirral, South often, if not always, works well and results in appropriate development? Does he understand that its reduction or removal is likely to lead to the development of executive homes rather than low-cost housing and result in a victory for a well-funded housing lobby?

Iain Wright: My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. He knows the importance of mixed communities and diversity in the housing offer, particularly in terms of affordable housing. Housing has the potential to be a source of inequality over the next few years. That is why my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing has announced an £801 million cash boost for the north-west region to tackle affordable housing. I hope that Wirral, South receives its fair share.

Affordable Housing

Chris McCafferty: What assessment she has made of the level of need for additional affordable housing; and if she will make a statement.

Parmjit Dhanda: Using the methodology of Kate Barker's review of housing supply, the Department estimates newly arising need that cannot be met in the market or by existing stock of at least 40,000 new social rented homes per annum. In the housing Green Paper, we announced an increase in new affordable housing to at least 70,000 per annum by 2010-11, of which 45,000 homes will be for social rent. We have a goal to go further in subsequent years, to 50,000 new social homes a year in the next spending review period.

Chris McCafferty: I welcome my hon. Friend's strong and long-standing commitment to affordable and social housing. I also welcome the announcements today and the statement yesterday on a proposed independent, stand-alone regulatory body for housing, including affordable housing. Will my hon. Friend look carefully at honeypot areas, such as Hebden Bridge in my constituency, where there are many second homes in converted mills, but very few houses for families?

Parmjit Dhanda: My hon. Friend makes a good point and I hope that she will refer it to the regional assembly to consider. With regard to housing allocation, it is well worth considering other affordable housing options. Since 1997, 400,000 new affordable homes have been built—the figure also includes refurbished properties, which goes to show what can be done with existing properties.

Philip Davies: The Government always look at the supply side of housing, not the demand side. Will the Minister confirm that more than 1 million of the 3 million houses that the Government wish to build over the next 15 years will be needed for future immigration? Will he tell us what assessment he has made of the impact of immigration and asylum on affordable and social housing over the past 10 years?

Parmjit Dhanda: The hon. Gentleman needs to be aware that more than 70 per cent. of the demand for housing between now and 2020 will be due to people living in single-person households and other demographic factors. It is not all about migration. We have a migration impacts forum, which I chair jointly with a Minister from the Home Office, but we should also consider the contribution of migrants to this country. They contribute more, in terms of gross domestic product, than they take out, and the percentage is growing over the years.

Adrian Bailey: Historically, my constituency had a large, poor quality housing stock and a low-value private stock. Now, it has a thriving private sector market and a hugely improved social housing stock, but an acute shortage of affordable housing. In spite of all the developments, not enough property is coming on to the market. Can my hon. Friend assure me that he will work with the local authorities and developers to ensure that that supply of housing improves?

Parmjit Dhanda: My hon. Friend makes a good point. He has mentioned the enhanced allocations in the west midlands, including some 41 per cent. for his own area. The national allocation will be 70,000 more affordable homes per year by 2010-11, which will, I hope, make a huge difference to his constituency and region, and to the whole country.

Paul Holmes: I am sure that the Minister is aware that all too many affordable homes are not affordable at all when they go on the market, being far too expensive for many first-time buyers. Will the Government commit to putting large quantities of public land, such as that belonging to the Ministry of Defence and the NHS—which they have talked about releasing—into community land trusts, which hold the land and sell on the bricks and mortar at an affordable price?

Parmjit Dhanda: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point; we are piloting such schemes presently. In terms of getting people on to the housing ladder for the first time, he should be aware that 26,000 key workers have benefited since the scheme was put in place in 2001 and 80,000 people have also been helped by shared equity schemes in recent years.

Hugh Bayley: I welcome the Government's proposal for eco-towns, but can the Minister reassure me that the same high environmental standards will be applied to new affordable housing, so that they are not just affordable for the people who rent or buy them, but affordable to run, in terms of heating bills?

Parmjit Dhanda: My hon. Friend is probably aware that there are higher standards for affordable housing than for other types of allocation. He makes a good point about eco-homes, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing will take it on board.

Planning Decisions (Local Accountability)

Norman Baker: What plans she has to improve the local accountability of planning decisions.

Hazel Blears: Our proposals for nationally significant infrastructure projects will involve the public at every stage—on the development of national policy, on project proposals as they are being developed, and at the inquiry stage. We propose to create a legal requirement for promoters to consult the public before submitting an application for a nationally significant infrastructure project. That will be a big step forward, bringing about the early engagement of people affected by proposals for new or changed infrastructure.

Norman Baker: The question is who takes the decision, and although the Secretary of State has helpfully suggested that there should be less control on local authorities, through reduced targets, which I very much welcome, the fact is that in recent years responsibility for planning decisions has moved away from local councils to regional government, then to unelected regional development agencies, and now to a national body. Does she not agree that local decisions are best taken locally by elected people?

Hazel Blears: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for welcoming our increased flexibility for local government. There will certainly be both ministerial and parliamentary involvement in drawing up the national policy statements, which will provide a robust, accountable framework for the policy for major infrastructure projects. Through that system, we want to achieve increased certainty, more transparency and key accountability. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree that five years to get major infrastructure proposals agreed to is far too long for the future of the country. If we want to ensure economic prosperity, balanced with environmental sustainability, we need a new planning regime that gives us certainty, timeliness and accountability.

Stephen Ladyman: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the planning policy guidance note that Opposition parties largely hold responsible for reducing councils' room to manoeuvre was replaced some time ago with planning policy statement 3 on housing? That planning policy statement largely leaves local councils discretion on housing planning matters, including on the density of development, and on garden development policy. Every time that a Tory or Liberal Democrat councillor—

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hazel Blears: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for highlighting the way in which local authorities have increased flexibility to meet the needs of their local communities. I am sure that he will agree that the best local councils do exactly that through housing and planning decisions for their neighbourhoods. Coincidentally, those best councils, who are in touch with their communities, may well be the kind of councils that my hon. Friend mentioned.

Philip Hollobone: As a result of Government diktat, Kettering borough council has had a statutory duty placed on it to draw up plans for an extra 13,100 houses. That will increase the number of homes in Kettering by one third in the next 15 years. If there were a local referendum on whether local people agreed with those plans, would the Secretary of State take a blind bit of notice?

Hazel Blears: I am disappointed and rather shocked by the hon. Gentleman's way of expressing himself. He said that there is a diktat that requires the homes to be built. I would ask him to think a bit more carefully about the views of his community and the people whom he represents. Many of those people will have families—sons and daughters—who are in desperate need of new homes. Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that he does not want to provide new homes for first-time buyers, and that he will continue to betray them?

Brian Iddon: Recently, Bolton's planning committee turned down an application to erect a mobile telephone mast right in the heart of Little Lever precinct in my constituency. What does my right hon. Friend have to say to the angry residents of Little Lever, who found that T-Mobile turned up early one Sunday morning and erected the mast without planning permission? Should not firms like that be fined for their absolute arrogance?

Hazel Blears: My hon. Friend raises an issue of importance to local communities, and it is vital that the companies that are involved are sensitive to the needs of local people, conduct their business in a proper way with integrity, and consult the local community. If in the instance that the hon. Gentleman mentions, local views have simply been ignored and trampled on, clearly that is a matter that we will want to look into, because the basis of the system is trust and confidence. Where that is lacking, decisions will not have the support of the constituency.

Flooding

Martin Horwood: If she will make a statement on the Government's response to the flooding in summer 2007.

John Healey: We are committed to ensuring that the areas hit by the floods in the summer recover as soon as possible. So far we have made available comprehensive support of up to £57 million. However, we know that full recovery for many households, businesses and communities may yet take months. We will remain available and give the support needed for them to achieve that.

Martin Horwood: Given that some houses that were flash-flooded in Cheltenham in June and July now face spiralling insurance premiums and, possibly, a fall in price, is it wise or unwise to plan to build more homes in flood-risk areas such as Leckhampton? In time, houses built in such areas could be unsaleable and uninsurable, and could exacerbate flooding in nearby communities in Cheltenham.

John Healey: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have tightened up considerably planning legislation and regulations; we did so in December last year. That means that the preference now is for locations with a low flood risk. Given the area from which he comes, the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that it is not always possible to avoid flood risk altogether. Therefore, where there is a flood risk, we have built into the process a requirement for the Environment Agency to offer an assessment of the risks entailed to the planning authority. That is reducing the risk for developments in the future.

David Taylor: It is clear from the evidence that we have received on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, as part of an inquiry into flooding, that the advice of the Environment Agency on development on flood plains is far too often set aside. What plans are there to toughen up the framework so that at least those who can predict reasonably accurately where floods might take place will not see their advice rejected and floods taking place in the years that follow?

John Healey: That is exactly why we tightened up the regulation and process in the first place. First, the new guidance requires developers and planners to take account of the flood risk. Secondly, it directs development to areas of lowest risk. Thirdly, where there remains a flooding risk, the guidance requires that the Environment Agency assessment and advice should be made available as part of the planning authority's decision. Although it is early days, the evidence so far suggests that the number of go-aheads given contrary to Environment Agency advice is falling.

Bicycles (Children's Safety Helmets)

Peter Bone: I beg to move,
	That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require persons of 17 years and under to wear a safety helmet when riding a bicycle; and for connected purposes.
	From reading The Highway Code, one would think that it is already compulsory to wear a safety helmet when cycling. It states that
	"you should wear a cycling helmet which conforms to current regulations".
	Yet, that is not the law. It is, however, mandatory for children to wear safety helmets when playing cricket or riding a horse. Why should they not do so when riding a bike, the dangers of which are far greater?
	My proposed Bill has received support from both sides of the House, and I thank my fellow sponsors. When it was originally drafted, I proposed that the upper age limit for the mandatory wearing of a cycle helmet should be 17 years. However, having listened to representations from the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust, the CTC—the cyclists' touring club—and other interested groups, I shall propose an amendment in Committee to reduce the maximum age for the compulsory wearing of a cycle helmet to 14.
	The issue was first brought to my attention as part of my "Listening to Wellingborough and Rushden" campaign. In addition, my excellent and informative local weekly newspaper, the  Herald & Post, has been actively campaigning for a change in the law. Lawrence John, the senior reporter at the paper who has led the campaign, started a petition to make it compulsory for children to wear cycling helmets when riding their bikes.
	After researching the issue extensively, I felt that I needed to do all that I could as a Member of Parliament to seek legislation further to protect child cyclists. The Bill is designed to save lives and reduce injuries, including very serious head injuries, and to save the NHS millions of pounds of costs in treating and rehabilitating injured child cyclists.
	In 2006, child cyclist deaths rose by 55 per cent. In 2005, there were 20 deaths. Last year, there were 31 deaths, or nearly three a month. In response to a parliamentary question that I asked of the Department of Health, the Minister stated that, in a three-year period from 2003, 17,786 children aged 14 and under were admitted to NHS hospitals in England because of injuries incurred while cycling. This is not a minor matter. That figure does not include the many thousands who attend accident and emergency, are patched up and then sent home, nor does it include those who are admitted to hospitals in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. In the past three years, more than 1,600 children were killed or very seriously injured when riding their bikes. The Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust estimates that 85 per cent. of head injuries to child cyclists would be reduced or eliminated entirely if a helmet was worn. A cycle helmet absorbs 12 mph of energy and reduces the energy impact by that amount in all crashes.
	One argument that I have come across against compulsion is that if a juggernaut crashes into a child at 70 mph, a cycle helmet will not prevent injury. Of course it will not, but that is not what I am saying. I am saying not that children wearing a cycle helmet will emerge from a crash scratch-free but that the impact of the crash will be reduced by 12 mph of energy, thus lessening injury and saving lives. That could be the difference between a child having a serious head injury that will require 24-hour care for the rest of his life and a child suffering a minor concussion. For a child with a serious head injury needing long-term rehabilitation, the cost has been estimated at £250,000 for the first year alone. Children who have suffered severe head injuries require a lifetime of long-term help at the cost of millions of pounds. That, of course, ignores the pain and suffering of the victim and their family. Their quality of life, and that of their family, suffers greatly as a result of such an injury.
	My Bill would not make it mandatory for those over the age of 14 to wear safety helmets when cycling. Older children and adults can make up their own minds about the risks involved. However, a child's skull depth is less that half that of an adult and only reaches full depth in his late teens. Therefore, a child's head has less natural protection than that of an adult. Children are also less experienced cyclists than adults and are more likely to have an accident when riding on the public highway.
	Throughout my campaign, I have had meetings with the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust, the CTC, RoadPeace and the Minister of State for Transport. I was very encouraged by the meeting I had with the Minister in June and welcome the Government's independent investigation. I am, however, concerned about its time scale, which could be up to two years. I believe that we need legislation now to help to prevent further serious injury and death to children when riding their bikes.
	Last November, I presented to Parliament the petition organised by the  Herald and Post. I should like to praise the  Herald and Post for all its work in raising awareness in this field.
	I have been presented with some arguments against my Bill and I would like to take this opportunity to explain why I think those arguments are not enough to prevent legislation from going through.
	One argument against the Bill—often made with great force—is that it is yet more legislation intended to turn our country into a nanny state. Well, speaking as a right-wing son of Thatcher and a member of Cornerstone, I am not known for supporting an enlargement of the nanny state in any way, shape or form. This measure is not intended to dictate to adults how they should live their lives. It is designed for children who, at the age of 14 and under, are not able to take the decision for themselves. When they reach 15, they will have the choice of whether to wear a cycle helmet. I reiterate that I have no intention of bringing in this Bill for adults or anyone over the age of 14.
	Another argument against the Bill is that it will put children off cycling. I can safely say that my six-year-old son, Thomas, has no problems with wearing a cycle helmet when riding his bike—and what a good job he is doing at it! [Hon. Members: "Hear, hear."] I see no reason why the Bill would persuade other children to give up cycling or not to take it up in the first place.
	Many countries across the globe have introduced legislation to make it compulsory for children to wear cycle helmets. In Canada, a study of the level of cycling following such legislation showed that there had been no reduction. Likewise, cycling rates are among the highest in the world in Australia, where similar legislation was introduced 16 years ago. I believe that if people oppose this Bill, they are actually saying that children should not wear cycle helmets. It is either right or not right for children to wear safety helmets when riding—and if it is right, we should make it compulsory.
	The Bill is about plain common sense. It is about protecting our children. It is about saving millions of pounds for the NHS. It is about reducing injury to children and saving their lives. I commend it to the House.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Peter Bone, Mr. Graham Allen, John Bercow, Mr. Geoffrey Cox, Andrew George, Mr. Philip Hollobone, Mr. Mark Lancaster, Mr. Eric Martlew, Andrew Miller and Sir George Young.

Bicycles (Children's Safety Helmets)

Mr. Peter Bone accordingly presented a Bill to require persons of 17 years and under to wear a safety helmet when riding a bicycle; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time on Friday 19 October, and to be printed [Bill 186].

Defence Policy

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—  [Mr. Roy.]

Des Browne: I am sure that the whole House will join me in expressing condolences to the family and friends of Lance-Corporal Sarah Holmes of 29th Regiment Royal Logistics Corps, who died in support of operations in Iraq.
	I welcome this debate on defence policy. I particularly welcome the opportunity to focus on the strategic direction for our armed forces, which is all too often overlooked in the understandable focus on day-to-day issues. The UK's defence policy was laid out in the strategic defence review of 1998 and re-confirmed in our White Paper in 2003. The vision is
	"to defend the UK and its interests, including against terrorism, strengthen international peace and stability, and act as a force for good in the world".
	That vision defines the role of our armed forces in the world. It requires us to have forces capable of acting across the full spectrum of military activity, from conflict prevention to war fighting. It requires us to work effectively across Whitehall with other Departments—notably the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development—and with our allies and partners around the world. We could not deliver that vision without the men and women of our armed forces.
	Last Friday, I was reminded of all those who have lost their lives in the service of this country since world war two. The dedication of those involved with the armed forces memorial in Staffordshire is an appropriate and timely reminder of the debt that this nation and others owe to the men and women of our forces.
	As we debate our defence policy, it is important to remind ourselves of the challenges that we are likely to face in the future: international terrorism, weapons of mass destruction proliferation, fragile states and intransigent regimes. Of course, other pressures will complicate our response to such challenges: climate change, energy security, pressure on natural resources and social, technological and geopolitical change.
	The UK has a significant part to play in improving the international community's preparedness for such challenges, not least through our armed forces. Our foreign and defence policies decide where, how and with whom we are likely to deploy our armed forces. The judgment made in the SDR in 1998 was that we were likely to deploy alongside allies and partners, and that has been validated by recent operations. That will continue to be the policy for the foreseeable future for any medium or large-scale military operation.
	The House has questioned Defence Ministers regularly and appropriately in recent months about tour intervals and harmony guidelines, so it is worth my taking some time to explain that important part of our defence policy. We have planned on the basis that we should have armed forces capable of conducting one enduring medium-scale operation and one enduring small-scale operation at the same time, while retaining the capacity to conduct a third small-scale operation for a limited period—all while keeping within harmony guidelines, which, for the Army, are to have 24 months between six-month operational deployments. Having such a force structure also enables us to conduct a large-scale operation, such as that in Iraq in 2003, or a second medium-scale operation, such as that in Afghanistan, for limited periods, albeit with the consequence that those ideal tour intervals will not be achieved. That is the position that we have been in for the past few years.
	I am pleased to say, however, that conditions in Northern Ireland mean that the Army no longer has to maintain forces dedicated to assisting the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Conditions on the ground in Bosnia have also allowed us to reduce our presence there and, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced to the House last week, we plan to reduce our forces in Iraq by the spring of 2008.
	Those reduced commitments go some way towards allowing our servicemen and women the time at home that they need to recuperate and to see their families. The overriding lesson has been that our defence planning assumptions and our force structure have succeeded in generating the sort of capabilities that we need to deploy. But that is not the whole story, as many right hon. and hon. Members know. Emerging technologies such as unmanned aerial vehicles, and the need to respond to a rapidly evolving threat, present commanders with new opportunities and new constraints. We need to match that with the necessary force structure—involving additional UAV units and battlefield helicopters, for example—but perhaps balanced by fewer anti-submarine warfare assets.
	We keep our force structure under regular review, with an eye to what we need to protect our interests both nationally and in the multilateral context in which we are most likely to deploy. The outcome of the comprehensive spending review allows us to do just that. It provides 1.5 per cent. annual real-terms growth in the defence budget to 2010-11, thus cementing a decade of real growth. By 2011, the defence budget will be more than 10 per cent. higher in real terms than in 1997-98.

Bernard Jenkin: I hope that the Secretary of State will forgive me for conveying the sentiment of many in the armed forces that he seems to be putting a very brave face on the situation in his Department. Although it is true that defence spending may have risen by 10 per cent. in real terms since 1997, it is also true that the United States has increased its spending by 60 per cent., the Russian Federation by 148 per cent., India by 40 per cent., and China by 129 per cent. Why are we falling so far behind so many of our international comparators?

Des Browne: The first point that I make to the hon. Gentleman—and others in his party who constantly look for comparators to justify, in their terms, the allegation of cuts in UK defence spending, which they have thankfully moved away from—is that our real-terms growth in defence spending contrasts significantly with what happened during the last years of the Government whom he supported. They cut defence spending by £0.5 billion a year in real terms. The challenge for him and his Front-Bench spokesmen is not whether they can compare spending in the UK, in its particular circumstances, with spending in any other country that they might identify. I could identify many countries where the comparison goes the other way.
	The challenge for his party is to match the level of spending to which we have committed in the spending review and to say whether it intends to spend more on defence—and, if so, to say what it would spend that money on and which public services it would cut in order to spend it. If the hon. Gentleman and his Front-Bench spokesmen are not prepared to engage in that debate, they cannot be allowed to seek solace in comparisons that they have drawn out of the air. The circumstances of the US, Russia, China or India are not our circumstances. I am talking about a continuum of which we should be proud: real increases and real investment in defence, which are reflected in how we are able to support and equip our troops in the operational theatre.

Bernard Jenkin: Will the Secretary of State give way?

Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman can make a speech if he wants to. I am sure that other hon. Members will want to intervene on me.
	Multilateralism has been a cornerstone of our defence and security policies for over 50 years. The United Nations stands at the pinnacle of the world's efforts to create a coherent and effective multilateral approach. We fully support the role of the UN to resolve tensions and crises around the world. Currently, it is running an unparalleled number of peace support operations, with more than 100,000 military and police personnel from numerous nations deployed by the UN in operations around the world. During the past year, 110 nations have contributed troops to UN peace support operations.
	There are currently about 300 UK military personnel deployed on 10 UN operations, including missions conducted in partnership with the African Union and the European Union. Such partnering between organisations is essential if we are to cope with the increasingly complex and demanding missions that we face.

Tobias Ellwood: I have just returned from Afghanistan, and I find myself blaming the United Nations for not co-ordinating efforts in that country. I appreciate that the Secretary of State shares my frustration, but does he not think it is now time to have an individual co-ordinator—an authoritative voice—to link the work of the UN, the European Union, the Department for International Development, the United States of America and, indeed, the international security assistance force? I believe that the window of opportunity is closing in that country, and a lot of the blame lies with the United Nations.

Des Browne: I know that the hon. Gentleman recently visited Afghanistan, and I am still examining the interesting list of issues that were raised with him when he met tribal leaders, and taking advice about it. I will respond to him, and I await the letter that he promised, which will raise other issues. I am grateful for the constructive way in which he has contributed to the debate relating to strategy and development after his visits to Afghanistan.
	I am not surprised that, as a result of the hon. Gentleman's visit, he has come to the same conclusion about Afghanistan that I came to some time ago. Several things need to evolve out of the present circumstances in Afghanistan if we are to make progress towards the success that the situation there can still be, despite the efforts of the Taliban and others to disrupt it. One of those things is that the international community involved in this operation throughout the country needs a single leadership. There is no question about that.
	I have to say—I believe that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear this—that none of our international partners thinks otherwise.  [Interruption.] He asks from a sedentary position, "What about the Foreign Office?" He should know that the Foreign Office, together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development, has advocated for many months the policy that he mentioned. We have worked closely together to achieve the point that we have reached.
	In summary, everybody is convinced of the merits of the argument. We will quickly move through the current phase of identifying the appropriate person and getting them in post. That is only the beginning. The challenge that follows is to ensure that that person can give focus and direction to all the organisations and others that operate from the international communiqué in such a way as to support and build, not undermine, the Afghan Government. That is the next stage of the challenge that the international community faces. I am pleased—and reinforced in my view—that the hon. Gentleman, who thinks long, hard and deeply about such issues, has reached the same conclusion. He should rest assured that most decision makers in the world share that view about Afghanistan. We now need to put it into practice, which might turn out to be a greater challenge than simply expressing it.
	The United Nations, like all non-military organisations in Afghanistan, faces a challenge with which the hon. Gentleman is familiar. It must consider how one can sustain the duty of care to those whom it deploys into those operational theatres while recognising that there is some insecurity about them that one seldom encounters in other parts of the world where the United Nations operates. That balance is a challenge to the United Nations, but the part of my speech about that organisation was included at my insistence simply because there is a lack of knowledge in this country about the extent to which the United Nations carries out its role throughout the world and the scale of its operations in some of the most dangerous parts of the world.

Nicholas Winterton: Most people in this country believe that our armed forces are here to act for the security of our state and in the interests of the United Kingdom. Does not the Secretary of State genuinely feel that we may be extending our armed services too far in the number of operations in which we are prepared to take part? If we are to give soldiers the equipment that they need to give them the life that they deserve and the best chances of survival in any operation, perhaps we need to be more selective about the number of operations in which we participate. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree?

Des Browne: I agree that we should be discriminating about where we deploy our troops, and I believe that we have been. Indeed, the early part of my speech was designed to give hon. Members and others who may read it an indication of the way in which I am putting into practice the objective that the hon. Gentleman so eloquently sets out of allowing our armed forces the opportunity to recuperate and rebuild from the challenges that we have asked them to face, through reducing our commitment and providing space. Early in the job, I learned something that was counter-intuitive to me, given that I do not have a military background. Outside the military, if people are trained to do something and then deployed to do it, they get better at it. The military has taught me that military skills are sustained by training people, and degraded—or at least in danger of being degraded—by deploying people into operational theatres. That is counter-intuitive, but I learned that quickly from the advice and briefings that I received. I subsequently consistently sought to reach the current position and move further. To that extent, I agree with the hon. Gentleman.
	However, I do not want to give the impression that I agree that it is not in our national interest to deploy our troops where they have been deployed. For example, it is manifestly in our national interest to deploy to Afghanistan. We lost the greatest number of UK citizens in a single terrorist incident in the attack on the twin towers in New York, and that terrorist atrocity was planned in Afghanistan. Ninety per cent. of the heroin that is abused on the streets and in the communities of the United Kingdom comes from Afghanistan. I understand that we will not deal with the supply of narcotics from Afghanistan in the longer term unless we deal with the issues here in the United Kingdom, but we need to do both.
	Our deployment is manifestly in the interests of the people of the United Kingdom for those two reasons, if not for the fact that we as part of the international community owe the people of Afghanistan a debt of honour to support them out of the decades of conflict that they have had to suffer. Some 2 million of Afghanistan's own people have died in getting the country to the point at which it now enjoys a limited and fragile freedom. On each occasion in the past on which the international community has promised to support Afghanistan out of conflict, it has not done so. People in this country think that it is in our interests, as a responsible member of the international community, to live up to those commitments. For all those reasons, it is in the interests of the United Kingdom that we should have troops deployed to Afghanistan.

Kali Mountford: Is it not important that we remember that such actions must be in our mutual interests? Does my right hon. Friend recall meeting, along with me, women from Helmand province who are now councillors there? They told us that it was important that we kept the security that they needed to operate as councillors in the province, so that they could take the important decisions that they need to take for themselves. Without our support, they cannot move forward in their important emerging democracy, while we at home cannot tackle the terrorism that we are experiencing unless we secure the emerging peace that we, too, vitally need.

Des Browne: My hon. Friend puts her argument clearly. Enabling people in countries such as Afghanistan to enjoy a quality of life and to be governed in a way that they manifestly want to be will guarantee our long-term security. Future generations in the United Kingdom will be much safer if countries such as Afghanistan and other places that had become ungoverned space—places that could be used as training grounds for terrorists and that gangsters and others could maraud around—become more stable and settled.
	We face a problem in getting that across to the people of the United Kingdom, although I never find any difficulty in explaining the narcotics issue on the streets of my constituency. People understand the heroin issue clearly, because it is present in their communities. However, part of the problem in getting the argument across is that we need better to describe the end state that we believe we can allow the people of Afghanistan to take forward themselves. Part of that is substantially dependent on engaging more women in the decision-making process in such countries. I do not think that there is any doubt about that.

Peter Kilfoyle: rose—

David Drew: rose—

Des Browne: I intend to come to a passage later in my speech that is devoted to Afghanistan. I seem to have triggered the debate on Afghanistan a wee bit earlier than I thought I would, so if my hon. Friends want to question me specifically about Afghanistan, they might want to wait until later.

David Drew: I wish to raise the issue of Darfur. We are talking about being discriminating, but there is no greater conflict in our world today than in Darfur. As we move from the African Union Mission in Sudan—AMIS—to the United Nations-African Union Mission in Darfur, we, along with all other nations in the UN, are committed to ensuring that that force is properly resourced and logistically supported. Will my right hon. Friend give me an assurance that we will play our part—not with troops on the ground, but with support behind the scenes—to ensure that, when we increase the troop numbers to give the people of Darfur the security that they pray for, we also learn the lessons from AMIS's inability to secure the ground, so that people can begin to return to their homes and live their lives in some hope that the conflict will come to an end?

Des Browne: My hon. Friend speaks for everybody in the House when he makes a plea for the plight of the people of Darfur, given what they have gone through, to be given the appropriate priority. I do not think that anybody would contradict him. However, as he also rightly points out, we must increasingly accept that there are different ways in which we can support different operations. I am proud, as I am sure others are, of the cross-party political leadership that we in the United Kingdom have given on Darfur and of the contribution that our Prime Minister made, along with other international partners, in leading the United Nations to an unequivocal resolution that allowed the forces that he recognises as necessary to be deployed. That is underpinned by consistent and persistent investment in development for Darfur, and the support of others.
	I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware, however, that the sustainable improvement of the security of people in places such as Darfur can be supported in many other ways. One of the most important is to make an appropriate contribution to the training and development of security forces in Africa, so that people who have a direct national interest, as has been mentioned, in the settlement of some intransigent conflicts in Africa have the capability and capacity to do that. Our military personnel's valuable ability to train others in the skills learned by the British Army over centuries has been used across Africa. My hon. Friend can rest assured that we will continue to do everything that we can to support the deployment of forces in an appropriate way. The most important part of that is to give consistent international political leadership on the issue.

Liam Fox: This week the EU announced its 3,000-man peacekeeping mission to Chad. No one suggests that that is not an appropriate action or an important role, but it will require airlift capacity and other logistic support. The Secretary of State was at the discussions with his EU partners. Will he tell the House what excuse they gave for being able to find airlift capacity and logistic support for the mission to Chad but not being able to provide additional support in Afghanistan, where we seem to be extremely short on the ground?

Des Browne: We will not help to encourage others—which I do a great deal—to become involved and to develop their capability and capacity to make an appropriate contribution to operations if we get into a futile bidding war about this priority as opposed to another.  [Interruption.] My point is that neither the hon. Gentleman nor I are in a position to point to any atrocity in any part of the world and say that the people there are more or less deserving than others. Our responsibility, as some of the richest countries in the world collected together, is to do what we can to try to meet all those challenges, if possible, but I recognise that we cannot deal with every challenge. I do not look for such things as excuses or explanations.
	On the deployment into Chad, what is happening there is, on any view, a clear extension of what is happening in Darfur, and needs to be challenged and dealt with just as much. If we do not challenge at both sides of the border, we will find ourselves in a difficult situation. As a matter of fact, strategic airlift is still a challenge there, and is not yet resolved. We are not in the comfortable position that the hon. Gentleman suggests, in which people say that they can do that but they cannot do something else. People are trying to do, in good faith, what they believe is right—to deal with difficult circumstances in different parts of the world. His point in relation to people living up to their commitments is not lost on me, and I shall return to it shortly.
	Beneath the United Nations, NATO remains central to our collective defence and security needs, as it has been for almost 60 years. We also recognise the important benefits that the EU, with its wide range of civil and military capabilities, can bring to resolving crises. We are working hard to build the capabilities and effectiveness of both organisations in a mutually supportive way, so that their efforts and capabilities complement each other rather than duplicate or compete.
	We expect NATO allies and EU partners to meet their responsibility in sharing the risks and costs of collective action. Many are doing so and we salute their efforts. But the contribution of some European nations is quite disappointing. All are answerable to their own people and Parliaments, but NATO and European solidarity do not have an opt-out clause.
	Our armed forces do not work in isolation. We must use effectively all the levers available to Government: reconstruction and development, foreign diplomacy and the military. That has become known as a "comprehensive approach". Crucially—because it is these other efforts that will eventually bring lasting peace—the strategic military effort should be driven by political and economic needs, not the other way round. However, at tactical and operational level the military are often leading, and need support from diplomats and development experts. We are working across Government, with non-governmental organisations, allies and partners, to improve our collective ability to do that. Nowhere is the comprehensive approach more vital than in Afghanistan.

Julian Brazier: In reply to an earlier intervention, the Secretary of State made the point that in Afghanistan the United Nations agencies were under pressure from the Taliban, whose members were effectively trying to kill their people on the ground. May I put it to him that wherever we are up against militant Islam—or, indeed, other forces such as those confronting the troops deployed in Darfur—we are subject to such risks? It is a fact of the modern military environment that civilians are targeted. I suggest that part of the solution lies in a degree of blurring of the military-civilian interface, and in bringing more civilian skills and expertise to the military framework through reserve forces and other wider measures, rather than simply trying to persuade what are essentially civilian agencies to do work on which they will ultimately be unable to deliver.

Des Browne: On the basis of my experience—particularly in Afghanistan, but also in Iraq—and my observation of other areas that I have not visited regularly, there is much in what the hon. Gentleman says, but his suggestion brings with it other challenges. We must be careful not to create a scenario in which we blur the distinction between NGOs and the military to such an extent that we create an environment in which people other than those described by the hon. Gentleman can operate. I think he will understand that that is a trap. We do not want to drive NGOs out of the environment; we want to create an environment into which we can bring them with a degree of security.
	This is a lively and current debate between Governments, NGOs, allies and others. It is an engaged debate: no one is shirking the responsibilities that it brings us collectively. But we must find a way of giving NGOs confidence to deploy their workers and others in the environment that we create, where they do not become the target because they are accused of being part of the military structure. That is important. I see the hon. Gentleman nodding in agreement.
	We need to consider the issue carefully. It is difficult to establish exactly how it should be dealt with. I should be happy to continue this conversation with the hon. Gentleman—here and in other locations—to try to resolve it, but resolve it we must. I should point out to him that one of the first decisions I made in relation to Afghanistan was to increase our forces there by the deployment of engineers. As he knows, those engineers had a significant effect on the ability to deliver reconstruction in a way that increased the confidence of local people that the challenges posed by the Taliban in their communities were worth taking up, because there was an immediate reward.

Julian Brazier: I do not mean to make an excessively partisan point, but one of the parts of the Territorial Army that was cut the most was the TA section of the Royal Engineers, although there has been some build-back in the future army strategy. Many of the skills that the Secretary of State has mentioned are readily available in civilian life. The deployment of TA Royal Engineers units would be a very good way of dealing with the present circumstances—until, obviously, an environment is created in which NGOs can once more play a part.

Des Browne: I entirely agree. I do not wish to compete with the hon. Gentleman as a cheerleader for the Territorial Army—I know he has many more years' experience of that than I have—but I have been astonished and impressed not just by the skills but by the commitment that its members bring to their job. I recognise the point that the hon. Gentleman makes in relation to the specific issue, but I am also glad that he recognises the complications of doing that on a grander scale. We must work our way through these matters.
	Afghanistan is a noble cause. We cannot allow it to slip once more into disorder, or again to become a haven for international terrorism, nor can we abandon the Afghan people, who have embarked on a course of democracy and peace. We have made significant progress since 2001, but Afghanistan remains a fragile state. To show that it is heading in the right direction, let me repeat some of the indicators of progress there—I hope that those who have heard them before will forgive me. Forty thousand Afghan national army troops have been trained and equipped—indeed, I think that that figure is now out of date and that there are significantly more such troops. Of its refugees, 4.8 million have returned home; that has not been matched by any other country in the world, as nowhere else is there evidence of so many people voluntarily returning because of a change in the political and social environment of a country from which they had sought refuge. Eighty-three per cent. of the population now has access to medical facilities; for substantial parts of Afghanistan before 2001 that figure was in the teens rather than the 80s. More than 5 million children are in education, in excess of 1 million of whom are girls who were not educated at all when the Taliban ran the country. President Karzai recently observed in passing—although it is a significant fact—that for the first time in almost 40 years Afghanistan was close to becoming self-sufficient in food production; that is a major achievement, and it has been achieved in a comparatively short time.
	However, these advances must be protected and built upon, and doing so will involve facing up to some serious challenges, most of which are not military. Our armed forces are doing the most superb job in protecting the Afghan people from the Taliban, but we must continue to help the Afghans exploit the space that we create, by helping them to govern effectively, to establish and administer fair laws that reflect their society and to spend the international aid they receive. The results must be felt for generations, not for months and years. The will is there, but we must help them develop the means.

Peter Kilfoyle: Although I take issue with the Secretary of State on the wisdom of our continued presence in Afghanistan, I am sure that we both agree that our troops on the ground are doing excellent work and that we must seriously consider their welfare and morale. Has he received reports of, for example, forward units in Helmand spending 40 days on ration packs and it not being possible to resupply them? Is that the case? Is the Secretary of State aware of such reports, and if so, what does he think that does for the morale of the soldiers?

Des Browne: I am certainly now aware of such reports, but there is not a jot of truth in them. My hon. Friend ought to be very careful about what he says, because of the possible effect on troops' families back here in the UK of repeating some of the dishonesties that are at large about the circumstances of our forces on the ground in Afghanistan. I know that he will be careful, because he is a responsible person. He asks me directly whether there is any truth in this; I tell him directly that there is no truth in this.
	That having been said, however, we must understand that war fighting is dirty, difficult and dangerous. Part of what has been happening over the past months is that because of mass communications, the people of this country, including a generation that has never seen this before, are being exposed in real time—or as near to that as one can get—to the reality of what war fighting is like. Frankly, as I have said, it is dirty, difficult and dangerous. We ought to understand that that is what we ask some of our young people to do, and that it is what we train them for. It devalues their skill, commitment and bravery to point out every single deprivation that comes with war fighting as being somehow a failure on the part of the Ministry of Defence, the Government or some bureaucrat to support them. Sometimes, some of the circumstances in which our people find themselves—and in which their morale is at its highest—are simply a consequence of the very violence that they have to deal with, and from which they have to deliver the communities that they seek to protect.
	I make that point clearly to Members and others. We ought to be careful not to devalue the bravery and contribution of the people whom we train to do this difficult and dangerous work by describing all its difficult aspects as some sort of failure by a bureaucrat. And as a matter of fact, what my hon. Friend described is not happening.

Denis MacShane: Of course, the country that has lost the most men in the Afghan conflict is Pakistan. More than 800 Pakistani soldiers have been killed as the Pakistani armies tried to help on the eastern flank. Does my right hon. Friend accept that the vast bulk of the Pakistani military have to be on their eastern flank, facing Kashmir, because of the half a million Indian soldiers there and the continuing troubles? If India could cut Pakistan some slack on Kashmir, more Pakistani troops could be heading west to patrol and to help us as we try to solve problems in Afghanistan.

Des Browne: My right hon. Friend is right, to the extent that none of the challenges, difficulties, conflicts and confrontations that exist in that region can be resolved on its own; they are all interrelated. Beyond the issues that we have been debating in the past few minutes, there is no doubt that the fact that the ethnic Pashtun people stretch beyond the Durand line into Pakistan, and that parts of the federally administered tribal areas of Pakistan—in which there are very significant issues about radicalisation and radical Islam—that are substantially ungoverned, are related to and interrelated in the Afghan situation. That is why we will never find a solution to these problems for the Afghan people without the recognition that there is a significant Pakistani element in this, but also vice versa. That has to be part of the international community's objective in dealing with this issue. As my right hon. Friend points out, once one gets to Pakistan and into the issues that the Pakistani Government face, one very quickly finds oneself on the other border, considering other issues. So all these issues are, as I said, interrelated.
	The challenges that we face in Afghanistan are significant and will take decades of hard work to address, but tackle them we must. Only through an effective and truly multilateral approach will we and the Afghan people have a chance to make that country free from the oppression of the Taliban, and to give all its people—men and women—the opportunities that we, thankfully, take for granted.
	In the past 17 months, I have visited Iraq six times. There has been progress, but it has not been easy. However, we have remained true to our strategy of transition, building the Iraqis' capacity to take responsibility for their own security. Frankly, this is the only sensible strategy, and I believe that the last year has shown that it is working. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister confirmed last week, we have now transferred three out of four provinces in southern Iraq for which we had responsibility, and we are on track for Basra to follow suit before 2008. This represents very real progress, which is firmly driven by objective assessments of the evolving situation on the ground. It has become manifestly clear over the past weeks that that is not only our assessment, but that of the Iraqi Government and of our principal ally—the United States of America.
	It is our servicemen and women who have set the conditions to enable this forward momentum, often at great personal cost. The UK has trained more than 13,000 Iraqi soldiers, and I pay tribute to their achievements in what are some of the most difficult circumstances imaginable. Yes, there have been difficulties along the way, which it would be wrong to understate, but the handover of Dhi Qar, Maysan and Muthanna has shown that Iraqi security forces can cope. More recently, the successful handover of Basra palace has allowed our personnel to place more emphasis on training, governance and border security. In this context, we have been able to take the very welcome decision to plan to reduce our force levels in Iraq to 2,500 by the spring of next year. We believe that this is a measured response to the evolving security situation and the increased capability of the Iraqis.
	Although we are seeing progress in the security situation, the political arena remains very difficult, with sectarian and regional interests still too often being put before national interests. Progress in Anbar province and negotiations between General Mohan and Shi'a militia groups in Basra show that the political landscape can change for the better, but that that takes time. We also welcome the enhanced role of the UN in that regard. Ultimately, it is for the Iraqi Government to formulate and deliver policies to help the Iraqi people, but we will do all that we can to assist them.

Bernard Jenkin: At the time of the invasion, British military forces comprised some 30 per cent. of the UN mandated coalition's combat power in Iraq. The Prime Minister's announcement envisages that we will now provide perhaps less than 2 per cent. of the coalition's combat power. Do we still stand shoulder to shoulder with our American ally?

Des Browne: We could not be closer. Knowing the hon. Gentleman's interest in Iraq, I am sure that he will have pored over every word uttered by General Petraeus when he was here explaining how closely we had worked to achieve what we have achieved in southern Iraq. If that was not good enough for him, he probably pored over every word uttered by Secretary Gates on his visit here only last week, when he confirmed that what we are doing was entirely consistent with what the Americans are doing. We therefore could not be closer to the US, and that is to be expected, although I know that the reduction in British troop numbers is counter-intuitive, especially given that it happened when the numbers of US troops were surging. However, those who understand the diversity of Iraq and the extent of the differences between provinces know that our action was entirely consistent with what the Americans were doing, given the different environment facing our troops. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will accept that the people in the US who know best about these matters—and they include General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker, who for some months now have been responsible for US policy in Iraq—have given evidence that confirms that.

Chris Bryant: In the summer, quite a few people argued that if we drew down our troops from Basra palace and handed it over to Iraqi troops, there could be a danger that the number of attacks on British troops at the air base would rise significantly, and that the security problems faced by civilians in Basra could get worse. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that exactly the opposite has happened?

Des Browne: I can, of course, confirm that exactly the opposite has happened—thus far. I make that qualification because I recognise that the situation is very fragile and that it is very important that the negotiations between General Mohan and those others who seek to exercise political power and economic influence in southern Iraq are sustained. We can create the opportunity for such negotiations and discussions to take place, but we cannot be a party to them, as they are for Iraqis to sort out between themselves. As long as progress is being made in that regard, the relationship that I have described will be sustained.
	We hear constant predictions that things are about to melt down in Iraq, but it is always possible, at any stage in the transition, that things will go either right or wrong. Many people out there know that it is a 50:50 bet and so always opt for pessimism, on the basis that that gives them a 50 per cent. chance of being right, and being able to say, "I told you so." Thankfully, however, our judgments are a bit more sophisticated than that. At the points of transition, we do not take any step unless we are assured that we are doing so in the context of preset conditions, measurements and tests that we have agreed with others.
	Until now, we have managed to make the progress that we have planned for, and broadly within the planned time scale. At each step, we have told the House and the country what the next stage of the plan would be, but I am not complacent: I know that we face a volatile and fragile set of circumstances, and that many people do not have the best interests of the UK or the Iraqi people at heart. In their briefings to me about what is going on in the operational theatre, many military commanders have told me, "You have to remember, Secretary of State, the enemy get a vote too, and we don't control that."
	Thus far, therefore, our actions have been correct, but we must not be complacent. In the interests of the Iraqi people, and of our people too, we have to recognise that we must take the same care when it comes to the next stage of the process.
	We cannot debate defence without addressing the threat of terrorism, which can emerge from abroad or at home and manifests itself against both armed forces and civilians. Its method is indiscriminate killing. Its aim is to promote an extremist ideology. As a Government, we are committed to tackling that threat at every level—its fundamental values, its spread to the disaffected, its planning, actions and representation. To do so requires hard power, to minimise the actions of terrorists, and soft power to minimise intent and recruitment.
	The military play an important role in countering terrorism and British forces are working to that end as I speak, both at home and across the globe. Through capacity building we help other nations bolster their defences and contribute to the international effort.

Liam Fox: No debate about international terrorism would be complete without considering the question of Iran. Would it ever be an acceptable outcome for the British Government for Iran to become a nuclear weapons state?

Des Browne: The British Government could not make clearer their position in relation to Iran's ambition to be a nuclear weapons state. As I have said from the Dispatch Box time and time again, my view is that Iran's behaviour—its interference in a malign fashion in Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Iraq—suggests that the country poses a strategic threat to the peace of the region in which it wants to play an important role. The irony is that Iran could play a positive role in the region; the country has shared interests with the countries in whose internal politics it seeks to interfere. I am in no doubt that the international community has adopted the right position in relation to Iran, and also that we have to stay together and pursue the arguments with the Iranians. Most importantly, we have to recruit in support of the arguments as many of the regional partners as possible, because they are the people to whom Iran will pay the greatest attention.
	I am conscious of the time, and of the fact that a significant number of people want to contribute to the debate, so I shall now sum up. It is the first duty of Government to protect their people and the national interest. The Government have a clear policy framework for delivering that duty. I have endeavoured in my speech to cover some of that broad front, but of necessity I have had to make discriminating judgments and have not been comprehensive. By working with friends, allies and international institutions to reduce threat and prevent conflict, and by ensuring that our forces have the capability to intervene around the world if necessary, we will achieve our objectives.

Lembit �pik: The Secretary of State has given a comprehensive analysis of the state of play in terms of defence. He is aware of my interest in the deaths at Deepcut army barracks. A memorial was recently dedicated to those who have died in the military, whether on active service or otherwise. It has been brought to my attention that the names of the four recruits who died at Deepcut have not been recorded on the memorial. The Secretary of State may not be able to answer the question now, but he will understand that the parents are eager to know the reasoning behind the exclusion of the names from that memorial.

Des Browne: I speak advisedly, but if the hon. Gentleman had been in the Chamber for the beginning of my speech, he would have heard me refer to that memorial, which was dedicated last Friday. I am sure he will join other Members who approved of my words when I said that it was a timely and appropriate memorial to those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. I am aware of the issue that he raises but, entirely appropriately, decisions about the memorial do not lie in the hands of Government and it would be wholly inappropriate if they didthey lie in the hands of trustees. It is of the essence of such a memorial that somebody has to define the descriptive phase for those whose names are entitled to be put on the memorial. The trustees sought to do thatit is a difficult thingand, almost by definition, it is the case that people will consider that some names are so near the margin of the definition that they would be offended if the names were not included. The trustees of the memorial recognised that.
	I hope that the hon. Gentleman will visit the memorial, because if he does, he will see that it contains not only the names of approximately 16,000 people who have lost their lives, either on duty or to acts of terrorism, but an obelisk, which has been put there for the purpose of commemorating the deaths of those who do not fall within that necessary definition. If that is any comfort to the families whom he properly represents, that is the explanation, as I understand it. The decisions were made entirely in good faith and appropriately, but by definition, people will feel aggrieved because someone whom they consider to be very close to the description of those who are included cannot be included. That is probably an appropriate issue on which to end this speech.

Liam Fox: May I fully associate myself and the Conservative party with the praise for the courage, professionalism and sacrifices of our armed forces? I echo the Secretary of State's condolences to the families of all those who have lost loved ones who were defending our country's wider security in Iraq and Afghanistan.
	I intend to talk about the impact of the comprehensive spending review on our defence policy, on the state of our armed forces and on the situation in Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran. In 1997, the former Prime Minister said that if the Conservatives were re-elected, he worried that defence spending would fall to 2.6 per cent. of gross domestic productthat was his choice of measurement at the time, not oursyet we know from this year's CSR projections that, proportionally, what we spend on defence is likely to fall to as low as 2.018 per cent. by 2010-11.
	While our military commitments have increased under this Government, the Army trained requirement has been cut from 108,500 to 102,000, the size of the Army is more than 9,000 below that initial target, one fifth of the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships have been cut since 1997more potentially face the axeand the RAF has more than 100 fewer front-line fixed-wing aircraft than in 1997. I say that because the Government's strategic defence review set out what they believed we needed to protect the country and its overseas interests, yet we are falling well below that and no explanation is ever given as to why the international environment justified those particular changes.
	As a share of total Government spending, defence expenditure has fallen from 7.8 per cent. in 1998 to 6.1 per cent. in 2006. That is indicative of where defence comes in the Government's list of prioritiesthat despite our being involved in two wars, those in Iraq and in Afghanistan, which have had a huge impact and an inevitable reduction in the life expectancy of much of the equipment involved. Funding from the Treasury reserve for urgent operational requirements does nothing to diminish what is, in effect, a long-term liability, which will need to be met from the core budget at some point. It is against that background that we must examine Ministers' boasts that they will achieve a 1.5 per cent. annual real-terms spending increase.
	The previous settlement that was trumpeted in those terms resulted in three infantry battalions being cut, and the loss of three destroyers and three frigates, so we are entitled to ask what the casualties will be this time around. We have heard rumours of further cuts to the surface fleet, to the size of the Army and to the RAF. I hope that today the Secretary of State will categorically rule out further cuts to the surface fleet or the Army establishment.

Kevan Jones: I have always argued for an increase in defence spending. What figure would the hon. Gentleman put on a future Conservative Government in terms of the amount of the nation's GDP that should be spent on defence?

Liam Fox: We would love to have had a widespread debate on this issue in a general electionif only the Government had had the courage to call one. As they say in fashion circles, This year, Brown is the new yellow. Who am I to comment on that?
	Last week, we had an interesting debate on procurement, which some hon. Members present today attended. The point was made on several occasions about the difficulty of assessing the defence budget in the UK compared to other countries. For example, it is impossible for us to know what the commitment is for the years ahead. We asked specific questions, the answers to which are needed for the House to have a sensible debate. However, when we asked about the carriers, for example, the answer was that disclosure of the detailed estimated annual costings over the five-year period for the procurement would likely prejudice the commercial interest and cannot be provided. On the future rapid effect system, or FRES, the answer was that details would prejudice the commercial interest and cannot be provided.
	The House would benefit from knowing the figures and being able to examine what is in the pipeline for front-line procurement. Only when we know the details will we know what we definitely want to commit to and what the necessary expenditure would be. If the Government were to make all those figures available to the HouseI intend to ask the Public Accounts Committee to obtain themwe could have a much better debate. It would be foolish for the Opposition to make estimates or commit to figures without having full access to the books. We would want to institute immediately a proper strategic defence review, which we have not had for 11 years now, to see what we believe the future shape of our armed forces should be. As the shadow Chancellor has said, when we see what we need to spend for our defence, we can decide appropriately.

Des Browne: There was a much less complicated answer to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones), if the hon. Gentleman had chosen to give it. He started by referring to percentages of GDP. If that is the best part of his argumentI assume it is, because he started with ithe must have some figure in mind. He and his right hon. and hon. Friends tell us that they were ready for an election some days ago. He must have had some figure in mind then: can he share it with us?

Liam Fox: When the Government have the courage to face the voters and call an election, we will know what spending years we are talking about and we will set out our plans in the appropriate way. At the moment, we have no idea what budget or public finances we will inherit. The reason I started with the GDP figure was that it was not our choice of measurement, but that of Tony Blair, back in 1997. He chose to make that figure the measure of Labour's success in dealing with armed forces expenditure.
	Ministers have been trumpeting the generosity of the settlement. However, as with all the Government's announcements, it pays to look at the small print. The settlement requires the MOD to find 2.7 billion worth of cashable efficiency savings on top of the 2.4 billion served up to the Treasury in the 2004 spending review. Perhaps the Secretary of State, or the Minister for the Armed Forces when he winds up later, can give us some idea where those savings will come from in the current budget.
	I also note that the MOD will be required to sell off 1.5 billion worth of assets and a significant proportion of its electromagnetic spectrum holdings. Will the Government give us a firm commitment that all the receipts from that fire sale will be retained by the MOD? Will the Minister of State today tell us how much of the receipts will be appropriated in aid for the defence budget and how much will be returned to the Treasury? Those figures are very important in working out how much of the new procurement programmes can be afforded in the years that have been mentioned in the figures.

Chris Bryant: This is not good enough. The hon. Gentleman started his speech by saying that the present contribution of 2.018 per cent. of GDP is not enough and should be more. We are not asking what he thinks the figure should be next year or the year after, but what it should be this year. If he is not prepared to say what the figure should be for this year, it is all party political posturing and he should be ashamed of himself.

Liam Fox: Let me go back to what the former Prime Minister said before the 1997 election:
	By 1999 defence spending will have fallen to 2.6 per cent. of GDP
	in his eyes, a terrible failure. He went on:
	The people who have had to bear the burden of these cuts are our servicemen and women, overstretched and under strength as never before.
	However, according to the Government's own argument, they have fallen below that GDP figure. They have increased their commitments and reduced our manpower. It is for the Governmenta Government unafraid to put their record before the electorateto defend their record in the House of Commons today. When we come to office, we will clearly set out all our proposalsand we will defend them, unlike the Government, who are clearly unwilling to do the same today, having failed by every measure that they themselves set.

Bernard Jenkin: I want to give my hon. Friend maximum support in resisting all the rubbish that is being thrown at him by the Government. The Government are responsible for current expenditure and for current levels of commitment. We have no idea what commitments we will face in two or three years' time, when a general election comes around. That will be the time to determine how to match those commitments with the necessary resources.

Liam Fox: My hon. Friend must not allow his common sense to get in the way of the Government's red herring, or of Government Members having a good time in the Chamber. I doubt whether the arguments that they make today will carry much weight with those who have to carry out those commitments overseas, and who find themselves increasingly overstretched.
	I wish to turn to the circumstances that our armed forces face, and I begin with the issue of bonuses for those on operations. As the press reported over the weekend, there is understandable animosity between military and civil personnel on operations in Iraq and Afghanistan with regard to the amount of bonus that civilians get paid, compared to their military counterparts. Let us take a major and a grade C2 civil servant as the comparators and, using monthly figures, let us see how military pay stacks up against civilian pay for those in Iraq or Afghanistan. A majora company commander responsible for the well-being, training, health and safety of more than 225 soldiers and marineswill earn roughly 4,320 in taxable income a month, including separation allowance, plus a 386 tax-free operational allowance.
	A civilian grade-C2 civil servant on the same deployment will earn 2,333 a month, plus an operational deployment allowance of 1,750 per month and an operational working allowance of between 3,500 and 6,500 a month. That means that the civilian will receive a minimum of 7,583 a month in taxable income. The civilian in headquarters is therefore at least 2,500 a month better off than the major, who is acting as a company commander in the field, and who is leading soldiers and marines in combat. It appears that the X factor needed to make civilians deploy is more than 225 per cent. of their salary, or 3.25 times their salary. Keep in mind that those figures are for a Ministry of Defence civilian, as compared to a field rank officer. Of course, the pay difference between an MOD civilian and a private or corporal is even greater, and it is the latter who are doing the shooting, the fighting and, in most cases, the dying.
	I understand that civilians volunteer for service in Iraq or Afghanistan, but we have an all-volunteer military, too. I would like the Government to reflect on the following question: although civilians play an important role in supporting the armed forces on operations, are the bonuses that both parties receive balanced and proportionate? I think that the general public would answer in the negative. What about the question of eligibility for bonuses? What about the 1,000 or so soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines who thought that they were going to Iraq and would receive the tax-free operational allowance, but who will find that they are going to Kuwait, Oman or other places in the Gulf?
	I am sure that I do not need to remind either the Secretary of State or the Minister for the Armed Forces that the Kuwait border is only 30 miles from the Basra air base. As a result of that small difference, service members will lose out on hundreds of pounds a month, although their American counterparts receive the same bonus regardless of whether they are in Iraq, Kuwait or Qatar. If the Secretary of State made it clear that those allowances will apply to all those in the region, and not just those in Iraq, that would be a major step forward.

Des Browne: That is a classic example of the sort of thing that I was talking about. Based on absolutely no research, not even the courtesy of asking the MOD whether what he has described is the reality, the hon. Gentleman has asserted his case at the Dispatch Box in the House of Commons. But it is not true.

Liam Fox: Good.

Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman says, Good. Perhaps he will now explain the basis on which he made the assertion in the first place. Is there a factual basis for it, or did he make it up for political advantage?

Liam Fox: I am delighted that those operational bonuses will apply, because those issues have been raised with us by members of the armed forces so that they can get clarification from the Government. If it is clear that we will get such clarification, I will be delightedand so will they be.

Des Browne: The hon. Gentleman now says to the House that he was asked to inquire. Why did he choose to inquire by asserting an untruth at the Dispatch Box, rather than asking me or a Minister?

Liam Fox: Excuse me, but I thought that the purpose of the House of Commons was for us to be able to question Ministers directly. It is an entirely appropriate place to raise such issues. Now that we have clarification on those, perhaps the Secretary of State will clarify other issues [Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The House must come to order.

Liam Fox: The armed forces compensation scheme has recently received wide publicity, and we welcome the fact that a review was undertaken on what is obviously a broken compensation system. We still await the full results of the review. However, I was, as other Members would have been, a little perplexed that the first time we heard about that review was on 28 August, when the Minister for the Armed Forces mentioned it on Radio 4's PM programme. Why was the statement not first made in the House of Commons?
	As for the scheme itself, the maximum amount payable is 285,000 plus the guaranteed-income pension for the rest of a service member's life. That is in contrast to the recent RAF civilian's lump sum of 485,000; they would not, of course, require a guaranteed-income payment. Those numbers are widely in the public domain and have an effect on the perception of the fairness with which the systems are applied. It is important that the Government's view on the matter should be clearly set out. Do they regard that discrepancy as fair and reasonable?

Des Browne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to clarify that canard as well. He is not comparing like with like. As he should know, the civil courts seek to capitalise a sum of money that will, among other things, represent the loss of income over the lifetime of a person such as those whom he describes. That would be added to the amount awarded to the person for the injury that they had suffered.
	What we do is guarantee that income over the lifetime and inflation-proof it. It is possible to get actuaries and others to capitalise that and add it figuratively to the maximum sum for the pain and suffering. However, if the hon. Gentleman is to continue to make the comparison, as he has now done for a significant period, he must take into account the fact that he is not comparing like with like. The person gets a lump sum and is obliged to invest it to generate an income for the rest of their working life, until they retire; what we provide is a lump sum plus a guaranteed inflation-proofed income.

Liam Fox: What the public will see is this: for losing limbs or major organs, someone would get a maximum of 285,000 plus a guaranteed-income pension, while someone working as a civilian who got a wrist injury would get a much larger sum and probably be back at work and able to generate their own income within a relatively short time. The public do not appreciate that discrepancy or the legalities that are being put forwardthey view one as overly generous in relation to the other. I hope that the Government understand that when they finally review the matter, because the public perception of the fairness of the treatment of our armed forces is extremely important.
	Let me turn to a matter that has recently been raised in the press: the treatment of military personnel in hospitals in the United Kingdom. Having visited the field hospital in Iraq, where our personnel are treated magnificently and not a single person has contracted a case of MRSA, I find it amazing that Private Jamie Cooper, the youngest British soldier to be injured in Iraq, is now back in Selly Oak with a C. difficile infection and two MRSA infections. We have to do an awful lot more about the quality of the medical care that is given. In general, the quality of care is superb, but surely something is very wrong when a field hospital can manage to have minimal infection levels, but on coming back to the UK our military personnel find that having fought off the enemy in Iraq they are having to fight off infections in the national health service of the world's fourth richest country. Something is very wrong with a medical system that allows that to happen.

Kevan Jones: The hon. Gentleman is making me very angry. I have visited Selly Oak, and it is nothing short of shameful for him to denigrate the hard-working staff there. If he actually read the newspaper article about the case that he mentions, he would see that the consultant said that the individual contracted the disease because he had a stomach wound and that the condition related to that, not to dirty hospitals.

Liam Fox: Now the hon. Gentleman is making me angry. I am not in any way denigrating the quality of the staff; I have already said that people get excellent care. However, there is something very wrong in our health service given the levels of infection in our NHS, to the extent that hospitals are having to be closed down.
	Let me turn to the wider picture, particularly Afghanistan, and the conditions of our troops.

Quentin Davies: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it not a tradition of this House that a Member who makes an honest and inadvertent false assertion in debate subsequently accepts that it was a false assertion and then withdraws it and formally apologises for it? The hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) has accepted that he made a false assertion this afternoon, but he seems to be coming towards the end of his speech and we have not yet heard the apology.

Madam Deputy Speaker: I have been in the Chair listening very carefully, and no false assertion has been made. I would advise all right hon. and hon. Members that for the remainder of this debate some moderation and temperate language would be acceptable.

Liam Fox: I certainly do not need to take lessons on falsehoods when I am standing on the same side of the House as that of my election manifesto.

Ann Winterton: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Liam Fox: In a moment.
	With winter approaching in Afghanistan, and already in some higher-altitude locations, we clearly have to do everything to ensure that our service personnel are sent into theatre with the right cold weather kit. Winter conditions in Afghanistan make it challenging, at best, to resupply ammunition, kit, food and fuel. The House will want to know from the Minister for the Armed Forces that all possible measures have been taken to ensure that British forces receive all resupplies in a consistent and timely manner, as required in Afghanistan in winter. What steps will be taken to ensure that, during the lull in fighting that is traditionally experienced throughout the winter months in Afghanistan, we maximise the reconstruction effort in the south of the country? The Secretary of State dealt with that at length in his speech. It is during the harsh winter months that the Afghan population most need help from the international community, so that is when we should be able to increase local support for the British and coalition presence in the country.
	When it comes to reconstruction, we really must take a properly enlightened approach. We need to ensure that our efforts are conducted in a way that empowers the people of Afghanistan. Our reconstruction efforts must foster ownership of and accomplishment in Afghanistan, not dependence on the west. We must make every effort to involve local communities and put an Afghan face on all reconstruction projects. I hope that Ministers will agree that that is the most sensible approach.
	I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) and I apologise for having temporarily overlooked her.

Ann Winterton: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. My point was about the nursing situation in field hospitals. My hon. Friend may be interested to learn that I recently met a Territorial Army nurse, who told me that the standard of hygiene in field hospitals was second to none for the simple reason that they had fallen back on the old-fashioned nursing techniques whereby every single person was to be responsible for themselves in their own area of expertise and for cleaning up afterwards. That was why there was virtually no infection in field hospitals in Iraq or elsewhere.

Liam Fox: When I was a junior doctor, I learned never to argue at all with nurses and I entirely accept my hon. Friend's point.
	When it comes to reconstruction in Afghanistan, we cannot emphasise enough the importance of including local Afghans in our reconstruction efforts. The more they participate, the more they take ownership and pride in rebuilding their country, which is shattered after years of warfare. A local villager no doubt views an attack by the Taliban on a school that he helped to build very differently than he would if that school had been exclusively built by western forces. However, reconstruction efforts in Afghanistan have to produce quick and tangible results for the people. Smaller projects that benefit a wider population in a shorter amount of time can have a more enduring effect than longer drawn-out projects that may indirectly benefit a large proportion of the population. In effect, the simple physiological needs of the Afghans have to be met by the international security assistance force or else the Taliban will fill the vacuum created by our inaction. That is especially true during the winter months when times get rough for many ordinary Afghans. Something as basic as food and water has to be provided before more ambitious projects can be launched.
	I echo what I believe the Secretary of State said earlier: we need broadly to learn the lesson from Iraq that the military can create and hold space only for so long. The politicians and the non-governmental organisations need to fill that space. We cannot wait for a zero-risk environment to begin wholesale reconstruction. We must also deal with the rising internal tensions in Afghanistan resulting from what is seen as the endemic corruption within the Afghan Government, running all the way to the highest levels.
	The whole country will welcome the fact that more of our troops are coming home from Iraq and no one will be more relieved than the families of the troops concerned. We in this party have never called for precipitate reductions or a timetable for withdrawal. We have to do what we believe to be right on the basis of the advice of our commanders on the ground. On that, we have always stood with the Government. In Iraq our overriding objectives should be to maximise the success of the mission that we set out to accomplish and to minimise the danger to our troops.
	There are still a number of questions that need to be asked and answered. There are the ongoing questions about the safety of the British forces remaining in Iraq, particularly at Basra air station, the capabilities of the Iraqi security forces, the protection of the Iraqi-run border and the steps towards a political settlement, both internally and regionally. The Secretary of State dealt with some of those questions in his speech.
	There remains one crucial question, however, that we need to ask today: now that our military forces are in an overwatch posture, can the Secretary of State or his Minister of State say under what circumstances they believe British troops would redeploy and intervene while conducting that role? Who would determine those criteria and who would take the decision? Would it be taken by the British Government and military alone or would it be a joint decision between Britain and Iraq? That is a very important question to which the Government have never provided a very clear answer, even though it lies at the heart of the entire overwatch question.
	Some Members still seem to want a rapid and complete withdrawal from Iraq. In southern Iraq, a premature withdrawalone without sustainable security architecturecould easily result in the escalation of the armed power struggle between the rival Shi'a militias. That would be likely to draw in the fledgling security structures. There would be the risk of further political destabilisation and a heightened threat to the Sunni population in south-east Iraq.
	A timetable that was set out would also provide perverse incentives. It is particularly important that the Liberal Democrats start to justify exactly why they would be willing to take the risks of a timetable that is set out with the clarity that they seem to want. Afghanistan would also feel the chill wind of prematurely departing British troops, as known Iraqi fighters would be immediately given the signal to move their caravan on to Afghanistan if they chose to do so, believing that they had accomplished their goal of defeating the coalition forces in Iraq. It would be a terrible signal to send to the Taliban that violence could succeed in hastening the departure of coalition armed forces, and the last thing that we want to do is to further them in that belief and aim.

Des Browne: I am happy to agree with that part of the hon. Gentleman's speech. He might find the answer to his question in a remark that was not reported but made by the now former leader of the Liberal Democrats at last week's Prime Minister's Question Time. He said in response to the Prime Minister at one stage during questioning him that the UK had sometime ago discharged its moral obligation to the people of Iraq. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we are in that very enhanced position?

Liam Fox: It would be nice to think that we could talk about that in the past tense, but we gave a commitment to the people of Iraq that we would not leave until the job was done and we had produced a sustainable security situation within which a civil society could properly flourish. When that has been achieved, that will be the time for the international coalition to leave Iraq. Exactly when that will occur is a very difficult thing to assess, but anyone who believes that we have already reached that position does not fully understand the reality of what is happening on the ground in Iraq.

Gavin Strang: I agree, but can the hon. Gentleman envisage a situation where he would want to increase the British military presence in Iraq?

Liam Fox: The Secretary of State is better placed to answer that than I am, but the experience so far is that we have had a successful handover to civilian authorities in Iraq, and the advice of our commanders has obviously been that they believe that, militarily, it was the appropriate time to do so. The fact that the level of violence has been containable and comparable with, if not lower than, that before the handover is testament to the correctness of that decision. It is very difficult to conceive of either the military or public opinion tolerating any increased deployment to Iraq, not least because of the overstretch in our forces, but it is fair for us to know under what circumstances we might redeploy the force that is there on overwatch and in what circumstances. That is reasonable, but the Minister might want to deal with that during his winding-up speech; I am sure that the House would like greater clarity on the issue. The incremental approach must be right, as long as we are getting progress in Iraq and can guarantee sufficient numbers for force protection. It is perfectly reasonable for the House to demand that of the Government.
	We briefly mentioned Iran earlier. The whole House will be extremely concerned that it is now becoming clear that factory-grade and other weapons are increasingly going from Iran into both Iraq and Afghanistan. Those weapons include roadside bombs and rocket-propelled grenades capable of piercing armoured vehicles and killing our troops. Elements of the Iranian regime are therefore involved, and must understand that they are involved, in the attacking and killing of international forces that are upholding UN mandates. We need assurances from the Government that the Iraqi border in Iraq is sufficiently patrolled by coalition and Iraqi forces to minimise the risk of such weapons being used against our forces.
	On the Iranian regime's interference in Afghanistan, it has been reported that officers of the Iranian revolutionary guard are supplying weaponry to Taliban insurgents, reportedly including sophisticated SA-7 Strella anti-aircraft missilesa serious threat to our helicopters. I would like the Minister of State to deal with that specific issue in his winding-up speech.
	The real strategic question is whether Iran should be allowed to become a nuclear weapon state. I suggest to the House that there are three reasons why Iran should not be allowed to do so. The first is the nature of the regime itself. It has already been shown to be involved in destabilising Iraq and it is almost certainly involved in providing weapons to Afghanistan. We have heard the rhetoric from the leadership of the regime and we know what that could mean for the wider region.
	Secondly, if Iran is allowed to become a nuclear weapon state, other countries will want to follow. We would be likely to see nuclear proliferation, which might affect Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria and other countries in the region, creating a destabilising, expensive and pointless nuclear arms race in one of the world's most dangerous regions. Thirdly, we know, as the Secretary of State mentioned, that Iran has been more than capable of carrying out terrorism by proxy. What that could mean in terms of terrorist blackmail from a nuclear armed state is something that none of us would want to imagine.

Chris Bryant: I wholly agree with the hon. Gentleman in that I do not want Iran to develop a nuclear capacity, which is why I support the European efforts to keep up important negotiations. However, if the United States of America were to propose military strikes on Iran, would he encourage it to do so, or would he actively oppose that?

Liam Fox: I understand and sympathise with the importance of the hon. Gentleman's question, but if we get into the hypothetical debate of ruling things in or out at a time when we are involved in high-level, delicate negotiations with Iran, the only people we are likely to give comfort to are the Iranian regime. It has to be made clear that we do not want Iran to become a nuclear-weapon state. Iran is, indeed, signed up to the non-proliferation treaty, in which it pledges not to become a nuclear weapon state. The international community is taking the correct approach at the present time, and to rule anything out would be to weaken our hand in negotiations. I do not think that we should be any more specific than that.
	I visited Iran a few weeks ago, and having been there and discussed the matter with Iranian politicians, I understood just how complex those negotiations can be and how difficult it can be to get across to some Iranian politicians that this is a quarrel not with the United States or the United Kingdom, but with the whole international community. The better that that community is able to speak with one voicenot splinter into what-ifsthe better our chance of getting a properly negotiated settlement in Iran that is to everyone's benefit.
	In the environment we currently face, one thing stands out above all else. In a truly global, interdependent economy, we have a far greater risk of exposure than in the past. Indeed, it has been said that today's multi-polar world resembles the second half of the 19th century much more than it did at any time during the cold war years. That means we have to get the structures right. Our global economy is using political structures designed for the environment after the second world war, and military structures largely designed for the cold war.
	The structure we need to get right the most is NATO; the Secretary of State touched on it in his speech. It has to be made clear to all NATO members that those who benefit from collective security are morally bound to a collective effort. Being part of NATO does not mean becoming involved in the conflicts or type of warfare that we like, and not the ones that we do not. There is a duty on all of those in the alliance to play a fair role, which means we have to bring an end to the fighting-funding link. People in this country already think it wrong that we in the UK play a disproportionate role in the military burden, along with the Americans and Canadians in the south of Afghanistan. The way in which NATO is funded means that we also carry a disproportionate level of the financial burden. The breaking of the fighting-funding link is necessary if NATO is to prosper and survive in what will be a threatening world.
	The bottom line is this: the Government issued an extremely competent and widely supported strategic defence review, from which flowed several planning assumptions, yet they have exceeded them in all of the past six years. Our manpower has reduced but our commitments have increased. Defence has fallen as a proportion of GDP and of the Government's overall expenditure, and the major procurement projects, which are widely supported by hon. Members of all partiesthe carriers, the future rapid effect system and the joint strike fighterare likely, without a change in the budgetary settlement, to mean cuts in other parts of the core budget. Our personnel exceed too widely the harmony guidelines and retention is a growing problem. Ten years into office, it is not a happy story for the Government to sell to the British public. It reflects badly on the Labour party and its priorities, butworseit badly lets down our armed forces. That is the real shame.

Bruce George: Madam Deputy Speaker, you got your retaliation in first, so I am constrained in the language that I may use in response to the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox). To say that his speech was not the most encouraging, competent, wise or factual contribution is an understatement. Anyone who is neutralI doubt whether any neutrals are present; there are not many Liberals, but even fewer neutralswould be disappointed. I do not wish to be hostile, but if the official Opposition aspire to be the future Government, I fear that we are being short-changed. I must point out that a few delusional characters support the Tory partythey do not do well in court cases. Indeed, I am looking at some delusional characters now.

Richard Benyon: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Bruce George: No, let me first outline what I am going to say.
	If the Opposition want to demonstrate that they are capable, they must show that they are different from the Conservative party that I have observed in my 34 years as a Member of Parliament, mostly in opposition. If one cannot get much from the futurefrom what might happen, according to the Opposition's proposalsone is forced to revert to the past.
	The Opposition's past is even more dispiriting than their proposals for the future. One gains the impression from listening to the hon. Member for Woodspring that the Conservative party is the SAS of Opposition defence teams, confident in its abilities and its history. One would also believe that the Government were somehow the descendants of a semi-pacifist or pacifist Labour party led by Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Frank Allaun and Ramsay MacDonald, who ended up as a Conservative. Neither of those extremes is true.
	The Government have been accused of all sorts of things, such as cutting defence expenditure. If the Opposition want to talk about cuts, they should consider the template under the Thatcher and Major Governments. Most of the increase in Government expenditure went on replacing kit lost during the war against Argentina. The previous Labour GovernmentFred Mulley was Secretary of Statepromised that we would commit ourselves to a 3 per cent. real increase in defence expenditure. Labour did thatthe cut came under Michael Heseltine. If one looks at the chart of defence expenditure and what the Library has producedI do not want to embroil the Library research department in a political argumentone sees that the statistics are clear. The picture of Tory defence expenditure, following a little spurt after the Falklands war, is: drop, drop, drop, drop, drop until the Defence Committee, then led by a wonderful Conservative Chairman, the late Michael Colvin, argued that Government expenditure was projected to fall to 2.2 per cent. Therefore, before too many rocks are thrown about any failings, I hope that the shadow Secretary of State will look at the many Defence Committee reports that were published during his party's period in office.
	Charges have been laid against the Government on Defence Medical Services, but just look at what the Defence Committee said about hospitals in Defence Costs Study No. 15. It said that the situation was appalling and that the cuts had gone so far that it doubted whether medical services would ever recover. That was a Tory-led Defence Committee.
	The Tory-led Defence Committee said in 1996 that defence cuts had gone so far that if they proceeded in the same direction, the defence of the realm would be severely endangered. I advise the shadow Secretary of State to look at my A to Z of Tory procurement foul-upsthe word foul-up was suggested when my first word was deemed inadvisable by the Clerks. All I am saying is, yes, we have made mistakes, but, on balance, this is not the Labour party of the early 1980s. This Labour Government have behaved, if not impeccably and perfectly, then in a way that has defended this country's interests well, and they will continue to do so. The hon. Member for Woodspring does neither himself nor his party any good by imagining that we are a party of extremist troglodytes who have somehow found their way into office and are now doing their best to undermine the security of the state and the welfare of our armed forces.

Liam Fox: I am interested in these lessons in the history of expenditure, but when did we last find ourselves fighting a war on two fronts while our defence expenditure, including the Treasury reserve element, was falling as a proportion of GDP and Government expenditure?

Bruce George: We fought a war on two fronts against Nazi Germany and imperial Japan. We almost lost that, as a consequence of the Conservative party's leaders in the 1930s, so I will not take any spurious examples of our failing this country, when it was the hon. Gentleman's party, with names that he [ Interruption. ] The hon. Gentleman can look contemptuously if he wants. He might not remember Stanley Baldwin or Neville Chamberlain, but he can read. They were the Prime Ministers who almost brought our country to the point of destruction. That is why I am not prepared to accept the trivia and, not the distortion, but the misinterpretation of facts that I have heard and am likely to hear over the next two or three years.

Liam Fox: As a historian, what does the right hon. Gentleman make of the fact that the proportion of GDP that we are spending on defence this year is the lowest since 1930?

Bruce George: The shadow Secretary of State will have noticed that the GDP of this country has grown quite significantly since his party has been in opposition, although I am not going to deliver a eulogy on the Prime Minister when he was Chancellor. Therefore, if we look not simply at the percentage of GDP but at the amount spent on defence, we realise that the figure is favourable. This will give a crumb of comfort to the Opposition and cause the Minister to look threateningly at me, as he has previously, but I believe that we should spend more on defence. I really do. Not simply more money

Kevan Jones: They do not know how much.

Bruce George: We do not know how much the Opposition are going to spend on defence. They are copying the Labour party. We did not invent identity theft or perfect it. I recall, however, that the Labour party's strategic defence review idea was not just to ease the transition to sanity in the Labour ranks but to buy a little time to get its defence policies together. David Clark, for example, was one of a number of people in the Opposition team who brought the Labour party back from the brink of fantasythis was partly how we got re-electedand showed that we were and are a responsible party.

Adrian Bailey: My right hon. Friend says that we do not know how much the main Opposition party will spend on defence. There is a clue, however, in the address by the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) to the Conservative party's annual conference. He promised to restore the three infantry battalions cut by Labour
	once we have seen the MoD's books and identified the savings to pay for them. A bigger Army for a safer Britain.
	Therefore, he will fund that expansion from other areas of MOD expenditure. There will be no net increase in expenditure.

Bruce George: I do not need to be revived, but I would like to advise the hon. Member for Woodspring, and I will send him a copy of my book on how the Staffordshire Regiment survived amalgamationit was amalgamated in the end, but at least it survived a decade longer. It was going to be amalgamated, as were many other regiments, by a range of Ministers, some of whom I have seen popping into the Chamber in the past couple of days.

Richard Benyon: The right hon. Gentleman has considerable experience in the House, whereas I am a relatively new Member of Parliament. Will he therefore advise me on how to operate, as a Member who feels passionately about defence issues, when former Army colleagues and constituents tell me what is going on? We try to probe the Government on issues, but we are then accused, as one of my hon. Friends was, of talking down our armed services or armed services medical support. In what way are we supposed to hold the Government to account on such important issues?

Bruce George: It would be improper of me to offer advice, but the hon. Gentleman should read a book, sit in on debates and keep his mouth shut until he has had ample time to make a proper contribution. I will willingly coach him as best I can, and tell him when he is ready to launch a speech on the House of Commons. I will ask him to read my book on what his Government tried to do to the Staffordshire Regiment. It is important to talk to people in the military, for whom I have the deepest respectI would never call them congenital whingers, because they are not. They say many things that can be picked up by Members of Parliament and used, as I have done many times over the years. One must not necessarily treat a snippet of information, however, as the end of the line for research. It is incumbent on all of us who have not been doctorsif we enter a profession that has any pretensions to scientific analysis, competence and verification, to take a different approachto be more serious about it. We should not throw away our lessons and, if someone drops us a titbit of information, rush in with a speech in the House of Commons.
	Many members of Her Majesty's armed forces will recognise the improvement in salaries. The shadow Minister, however, told us how badly a major is paidusing, no doubt, the bottom of a major's salary scale. I would like to be at the top of a major's salary scaleMembers of Parliament would have a considerable increase in salary if we werebut, in saying that, I in no way disparage the armed forces.  [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) looks at the armed forces review report, he will see the salary structures. He is a good friend, even though he is a Conservativemany of my good friends arebut a major's salary at the top of the scale is not bad at all.

Robert Flello: My right hon. Friend has spoken of snippets and titbits of information. He might be interested to know of one such piece of information that I picked up earlier in the year when I visited Basra, and enjoyed meeting members of the Staffords, who were serving there among other units. An other ranks told me that the kit in which he was dressed was the best equipment with which he had been issued for 13 years.

Bruce George: I hope that my hon. Friend will say more about that if he decides to speak this evening.
	We should consider the shabby kit that our armed forces had in 1991. The world's worst tank was imposed on themChallenger 1. I should like to engage in debate with anyone who disputes that, although Challenger 2 is one of the best tanks, if not the best.
	The Tories' record on procurement was a little unsatisfactory. We are now hearing about the Government's procurement failures: the Eurofighter, the future rapid effect system, Trident, the joint strike fighter and two real aircraft carriers. When the Tories were in office, they tried to sell off one of our three little aircraft carriers to the Australians, and we had to beg them to give it back. Now, we have two serviceable aircraft carrierswhich I think is wrong: I think we need threeuntil the proper ones come along. Ours has been a pretty impressive procurement programme, given the amount of money and what it has purchased.
	I have looked at the National Audit Office's press report, Major Projects Report 1997. Sir John Bourn had a bit of trouble recently, but I think he has done a superb job, and that the National Audit Office is one of the most professional audit offices in the world. In the report, which reflected the position on 31 March 1997, he said that
	the overall cost variance for the 20 projects common to the 1996 and 1997 Major Projects Reports has increased by 341 million,
	and spoke of
	the average delay to in-Service dates of just over three years (37 months).
	That is not an impressive figure. At the end of a period of Tory rule, that report was describing the Tories as pretty profligate and incapable of running the defence procurement process successfully. That is why I feel a little unhappy.
	We hear endlessly about defence housing. I can think of three Members who are present, on the Conservative Benches alone, who will remember Portillo giving away vital defence housingfor a sum that was subsequently lost in the Tory budgetto the Nomura Corporation masquerading as Mannington Homes. That disaster featured in four Defence Committee reports, all of which were critical.
	I shall read the hon. Member for Woodspring's speech very carefully. I shall consider his criticisms of Labour's expenditure, medical service provision, housing and equipment, and try to decide whether his speech provides any inspiration or satisfactionwhether it gives any indication that a new Tory Government, if there ever is one, will be any better than the last. On the basis of what I have heard today, I believe that a new Tory Government would not be any better, and indeed could be much worse.

Kevan Jones: During the last Parliament I served on the Defence Committee under my right hon. Friend's

Bruce George: Wise leadership!

Kevan Jones: Under his wise leadership and chairmanship. The Committee produced a report on the Bill that became the Armed Forces (Pensions and Compensation) Act 2004. Although our report was quite critical of some of what the Ministry of Defence was doing, including cash limiting, we recognised that for the first time ever a Labour Government were introducing lump-sum payments for members of our armed forces. Not once during the process did Conservative Front-Benchers raise any objections.

Bruce George: I am not sure whether to thank my hon. Friend for what he has said, as he is only half proud of what we did. One thing that we did was appoint better advisers than the MOD's, and we gave the MOD a rough time. However, we recognised that much had happened with compensation and other forms of benefit.
	Much has been done, but more remains to be done. We can never be absolutely happy until members of our armed forces who have been injured are properly compensated, regardless of whether they were injured while facing the enemy, in peacetime operations or while serving at home; we owe them a debt of honour. They must be properly compensated not only so that we can be happier about that and our consciences can be clearer, but so that more people will be prepared to join the armed forces.
	We must examine how our defence forces are evolving, the equipment we are purchasing, the training we are doing, the alliances of which we are a part, and whether our Government are displaying political wisdom in respect of our allies and potential adversarieswe hope that they are. In doing so, we must move beyond the immediate future. I recall Ministers such as Archie Hamiltona great guycoming before the Defence Committee, and our saying, Minister, you are thinking about the fact that the Soviet Union has now collapsed, but is the threat to the UK over? Why are you rushing to cut regiments? Why are you cutting defence expenditure? History teaches us that, regrettably, war is sometimes inevitable.

Liam Fox: Correct me if my memory is inaccurate, but did not the Labour Front-Bench team at the time want a bigger cuta bigger peace dividendthan the Government were offering?

Bruce George: That must have been in the early 1990s. As things proceeded, we realised that the world was a dangerous place. People should go along to the defence academy. I am sure that the Tory Front-Bench team has found out where it is, and that some of them have gone there; perhaps some of them have actually studied there. If they have not, they should, because there is an open-source document there on the considerable threats to this country. From reading that document, we can see that the Ministry of Defence is thinking about what will happen not in the next five or 10 years, but in the next 25 years.
	What happened in the 1980s and 1990s after the collapse of the Soviet Union? There was a belief that everything was now coming right: that the United States was the single world hegemon, that everyone would now bend their knees in respect, that the Soviet Union was gone and Russia was broken-backed, and that the world was about to enter a century of stability. Defence cuts proceeded in accordance with those optimistic scenarios, but now, only 15 years or so later, we are discovering that that is not what has happened.
	The US dominance of the worldmostly for good, sometimes not somight be coming to an end, although I hope it is not. Will the European Union step in and fill the vacuum? We can make assumptions or have wishes about that, but it will not do so. Did we foresee the economic and military rise of China? No, we did not. We should read what has recently come out of this House and the US Congress on the potential dangers from China. I hope that such dangers will not ariseI hope that there will be a Government whom we can deal withbut we cannot be certain; and in defence planning, assumptions must not be made. There is also the threat of emerging nuclear powers. I listened carefully to the comments of the hon. Member for Woodspring on the threat from Iran, and other threats could also be mentioned.
	We are spending too little on defence, and our budget should not simply be increased but be increased wisely. I am not saying that it should be increased by as much as 250 or 500 per cent., but we must imagine what might happen in five, 10 or 15 years, and take into account those countries that are trebling or quadrupling their GDPs [Interruption.] Well, I would like the figure to be at least 2.5 per cent. and, if necessary, higher. I am not an official spokesman, and perhaps that is why. Should the international situation deteriorate, one would, as a result, be able to adjust. As I have mentioned previously, when the Ottomans lost the battle of Lepanto, most of their fleet had been sunk. Those who survived sailed home, chopped down hundreds of thousands of trees and, six months later, were back, causing trouble in the Mediterranean. It takes 15 to 20 years to build a new generation of almost anything.
	I hope that the gloomy prognosis of Russia becoming autocratic again does not prove right. It would be almost an affront for Russia to say, You have to accept that we will be providing you with oil and gas, and if you try to take alternative measures, this is being disrespectful. We have to recognise that, for Russia, it is now score-settling time. I hope that I am wrong, but, even according to a half-gloomy perspective, we will be in for a difficult 10, 15 or 20 years. Even though many people do not like the United States, we have to hang on in with the US. We hope that there will be a Democrat leadershipnot a supine one, but an intelligent oneand close links with the European Union. The US should not take all the decisions: if we on this side of the Atlantic want to be taken seriously, we have to do things that we perhaps have not done so far, such as getting proper armed forces in countries that do not really have them.
	In the world that lies ahead, I hope that we are not going to drift aimlessly, as we did in the 1930s when we were left almost at the mercy of a country that ruled with an iron fist, and with armed forces that left us for dead. If we are to avoid that, we must be a bit more intelligent about defence, look to the future and spend money wisely on the right equipment, so that, should the worst happen, we and our alliesnot just the countries of Europe and north America, but many other countrieswill not be bullied by military force or the threat of it, or by the misuse of energy, which can be a far cheaper but equally deadly way of achieving objectives.

Nick Harvey: I begin by echoing the Secretary of State's words of condolence and by paying tribute to the superb work of the men and women of our armed forces in Afghanistan, Iraq and other places around the world.
	We had a debate last week on defence procurement, so I will not go over ground that we covered then. However, I welcome the opportunity to have a broader debate on defence policy at a time when overstretch in the armed forces is a subject of discussion not only among politicians and the media, but, in the past few months, among present and former heads of the Army. We are having this debate at a time when, as has already been stated and acknowledged, defence planning assumptions have been exceeded for several years, harmony guidelines have been breached too much, and the state of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan means that a toll is being taken not only on the men and women of our armed services, but on the equipment.
	There are particular units in the armed forces that we turn to again and again because of their suitability and excellence in undertaking work such as that in which we are currently involved. I am thinking in particular of the Marines, the Paras and others whom we go back to again and again for such operations. Each of those units will, in time, need to rebuild their contingent capabilities, but they will be unable to do so if we keep sending them out quite as regularly as we have done in the past few years.
	I welcome the fact that the Defence Secretary began to acknowledge and address some of those issues in his speech this afternoon. He said that he believed that changes were afoot that would ease some of these pressures. I hope that that is right. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, and we will watch developments closely to see whether the hopes outlined today come to fruition.
	We welcome the Government's recent announcement that they intend to reduce the number of our troops in Iraq in the early part of next year. That is a very welcome step in the right direction. The British mission in south-east Iraq has been in progress for some time. Originally, we had responsibility for four provinces; three have been handed back, and we are in the process of withdrawing from Basra province at present, but I remain curious about one matter.
	I assure the house that I raise this not to score a point but because I am genuinely puzzled, and hope that the Minister for the Armed Forces will be able to offer some clarification when he winds up the debate. As recently as 26 July, the Minister was discussing with the Defence Committee the prospects for reducing the number of our troops in Iraq. He said:
	The force is not self-sustaining and able to protect itself and do the other work that it has to do below about 5,000.
	He went on to say that
	in an...over-watch situation we cannot get much below 5,000 because we have to be able to sustain the force and self-protect the force itself, so over-watch in itself does not take us down a lot lower than that.
	I repeat that I am not referring to those remarks because I oppose the reduction to 2,500far from it. As I said, that is a move in the right direction, but I want to understand what has happened in the past couple of months that has caused the Government to make an assessment today that is different from what they were saying as recently as late July. Perhaps they have revised their assessments; if so, I look forward to hearing the Minister's explanation later on.
	I believe that the work in Iraq is progressing towards some sort of endgame and that, increasingly, the focus will move to our ongoing operations in Afghanistan. In my opinion it is widely accepted that we are in for a long haul there, and the public remain somewhat confused about what we are trying to achieve. As a political community composed of all the parties, Parliament must set about trying to explain that more clearly if we are to ensure that the public continue to support and understandand see the justification forwhat we are going to be doing in Afghanistan for some years to come.

Julian Brazier: Will the hon. Gentleman explain whether he supports the view expressed by the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), who until very recently was the leader of the Liberal Democrats? He said that he believed that our debt to Iraq had been discharged, and that we should withdraw now. Will the hon. Gentleman clarify his party's position on this matter?

Nick Harvey: As I said earlier, I believe that we are approaching the end of the work that we took on in Iraq. Three of the four provinces for which we had responsibility have been handed over to Iraqi authorities, and we are told that we will do the same with the fourth in the foreseeable future. After that happens, we should start to make preparations to leave Iraq. We should not scuttle out the minute the fourth province has been handed over but, as we have said in the past, we should initiate a timed and phased withdrawal.
	Both the Labour and Conservative parties have said, regularly, that a timetable for withdrawal is quite impossible, but I believe that what the Prime Minister has announcedand what the Government have begun to implementamounts to an embryonic timetable for withdrawal. The Government are determined to do nothing at a political level ahead of the American elections next autumn that could be seen as a final exit from Iraq, but we will watch with interest to see how far they will continue the process beyond the reduction of 2,500 troops that they have announced already.

Mark Hendrick: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Julian Brazier: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Nick Harvey: No, I shall press on.
	In Afghanistan, we are involved in a task for the long term and it is incumbent on all of us to explain it, even though that is not easy or straightforward to do. We have to accept that in Afghanistan tribal issues, insurgency issues and the dynamics of narcotics are interwoven in a complex way. The enemy we are fighting is often concealed among the people and difficult to identify, so our approach is important. It is vital to make and keep as many locals as possible as friends, and to remember that some of them are inclined to consider oral agreements as contracts of honour. It is part and parcel of the strategy we need to adopt that we remain sympathetic to the environment and the people with whom we are working.
	From time to time we have to use force, which is why our highly professional armed forces are in the country, but it is important for us and our allies that force is not used indiscriminately. If the Afghans feel that that is happening, there is a danger that jihadism will increase.
	There is a complex relationship between what our armed forces are doing and the work of other Departments, Government agencies and non-governmental organisations involved in international aid and relief. Clearly, security must precede development work but it is important that the latter does not come too far behind, which will sometimes entail risks with which NGOs in particular may not be familiar or comfortable. If there is to be a worthwhile dividend from the effort being made, it is important for development work to follow it closely. As has been said, to make that a reality, we need people from all the countries and organisations involved on the ground to have enough autonomy to take the necessary decisionssometimes quickly.
	At all times, we must remember that the objective is achieving security and stability, which is what the Afghans want. It is against that objective that our success should be measured, not simply by the number of Taliban fighters we manage to kill in the process. Building up Afghan capability is vital, and although the process is slow, it is progressing. Progress can be slow but we have to find Afghan solutions and work at an Afghan pace, which is not always the pace we want to work at or with which we are familiar.
	We have already discussed NATO and the broad coalition of countries involved in that important work in Afghanistan. The recent NATO Parliamentary Assembly highlighted the concern of member state parliamentarians about the lack of clear strategic objectives. We probably need to refine further those objectives. There is the continuing problem of the use of national caveats and the absence of sufficient financial and human resources to carry out the work we want to fulfil.
	I think we shall be in Afghanistan for many years to come, but it is already evident that some members of the coalition are tiring of the conflict; Germany, the Netherlands and Canada are just a few of the countries that have expressed reservations about their continued presence. Given the superb role played by the Canadians and the Dutch, and the impressively high percentage of regular troops they have committed to the work in Afghanistan, it would be deeply worrying were either country to think twice about continuing the operations they have supported so admirably until now.
	In a recent report, the Defence Committee highlighted the problem:
	NATO has not provided the required numbers of troops as stated in the Combined Joint Statement Of Requirement.
	The Committee expressed deep concern
	that the reluctance of some NATO members to provide troops for the ISAF mission is undermining NATO's credibility,
	and the prospects of success for those operations. It is essential that every possible pressure be put on all our allies to encourage them to recognise the long-term duty and commitment that we have all taken on. I think there is no division between the parties in the House in that regard.
	The Taliban insurgency continues to be a serious problem and a great strategic threat in Afghanistan. Over the weekend, there were reports about the extent of the Taliban revival and the increasing presence of other militant groups. Movements on the Pakistan border suggest a growing threat of continued insurgency operations. Different elements make up the insurgencies; they are not a homogenous bloc and should not be seen as one entity. The right hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) said it was right for people to pick up snippets of information from members of the armed forces to use judiciously in debates in the House. Marines in my constituency fought in Afghanistan for six months last winter, and I asked them what they made of the Taliban enemy they were up against. They replied that a remarkable number of their opponents had distinct regional accents, some of which, I am sorry to say, were west midlands accents. We need to remember that we are up against a complicated foe and we should not make simplistic judgments about who they are, what motivates them and what they are trying to achieve.
	Inevitably, we have taken heavy casualties but it is right that we carry the fight to the enemy. It is important that we are mobile and unpredictable. Sometimes the best form of defence is attack, so that we take on the enemy where we want to engage them and not on ground that might suit them better.

Lindsay Hoyle: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we are always the ones taking on the fight, and that only a few countries are willing to take on the hard role in Afghanistan? Does he agree that some of our NATO colleagues should take some of the weight that we have carried for far too long, and has he any ideas about how we can get them more involved so that they take some of that weight from us?

Nick Harvey: I agree; the hon. Gentleman's point is well made and I referred to the same thing earlier. The hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) said that membership of NATO means taking on the full commitment entailed by combined security and joint defence. These operations cannot be treated in an -la-carte way, as happens among some of our NATO allies, which is a real problem. We will be in Afghanistan for a long time and we must impress on our NATO allies that if the operation is to be sustainable, if it is to prevail and succeed, we must have more help in terms of manpower and finance from other members than we have had to date.
	Progress is being made. It is painfully slow, but there has been progress with hospitals, electricity generators, bridges, roads and water supplies. Goodness knows, there is a long way to go, but we should not be pessimistic just because sometimes the casualty figures are a lot higher than we would want.
	The success of many of the operations in which we are involved depends entirely on good intelligence, so I should welcome the Government's assessment of whether we have enough ISTARintelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissancecapability. In the House, we have previously referred to air assetsespecially helicoptersand they are still not adequate to the task in the long term. The fact that none of them is dedicated solely to the task of casualty evacuation, which has to be slotted into general helicopter tasking, is evidence that we do not have as many helicopters as we want.
	A separate, but slightly less obvious, problem is that the lack of helicopter capacity means that there is insufficient resource for some of the training that could improve the effectiveness of what we are doing. The terrain in Helmand is such that helicopters are vital, so unless we can address this issue for the longer term, it will continue to hold back what we are doing and undermine our aims. Helmand is also a punishing environment for equipment and vehicles, particularly for engines, transmissions and suspensions. All those are experiencing a heavy toll from the sort of work that we are undertaking in a hostile environment.
	As time goes on, we will need to work up the capability and capacity of the Afghans themselves. One of the prerequisites will be improving the ability of Afghan authorities to make medium-term and long-term plans. That is particularly limited now. Although the Afghan army is developing, Afghan policing is far more of a problem. At its best it is passable, but at its worst it comes down, at times, to militias and tribal police of varying loyalty, some of whom are involved in all manner of activities in which one would not normally expect or want the police to be involved. That issue will hold us back if we cannot address it.
	The issue of eradicating the poppy crop is serious. The Government have responded to the Defence Committee's report on Afghanistan, which criticised the poppy policy as confused. The problem, as we can all see, is that the crop is an essential part of the livelihood and income of many Afghans. The point to make about the poppy crop is that the dividendthe crop itselfis obtained within six months of planting. Let us consider the pre-1979 period, before the Soviet invasion. At that time, successful and viable crops such as nutmeg, almonds, currants and sultanas could be found in Afghanistan. We may want to get people back into growing vines, but they will wait five years to get a dividend from planting them, as opposed to the six months' wait after planting poppies. That is the critical point, so the aid effort and support that we can give will be our only hope of offering an alternative crop to the subsistence farmers.

David Hamilton: As a member of the Defence Committee, may I suggest that we should be looking at the long-term position? That is the point we made in our report: the investment should be put in for that long-term crop, as opposed to the short-term dividend. We must address that issue.

Nick Harvey: I agree with the hon. Gentleman's comments, and with the point that the Committee made. That issue is crucial to the long-term success of our operations in Afghanistan.
	The key point is that we must retain our commitment. We went into Afghanistan because we had no alternative: it had provided a headquarters for international terrorism. If we were to leave Afghanistan and not to see this operation through, we would be back to square one in very little time, and people there would be involved in all that again.
	We need a strategic defence review. The review that the Government carried out in 1998 was good, and it was to some extent updated by the White Paper that followed. However, as I said in last week's debate, if we are to make a proper assessment of the strategic environment and the sort of requirements that we will have in years to come, now is the time for another such review. It should examine our vision of where we think we fit in the world, what we will try to achieve in terms of both hard and soft power, and how we will develop capabilities to match those future objectives and the potential operations to which they might lead. We need an agile, flexible and deployable force, as stated in the 2004 comprehensive spending review. There is some way to go before we achieve that, and in a fast-changing environment, we must look forward to what we think we will need to do in years to come, particularly as we make difficult choices in our procurement budget.
	I warmly welcome the Royal British Legion's campaign on the broken covenant. It is a sign of the sense of alarm in the military community that such an organisation has felt driven to mount a campaign of that sort. The welfare and well-being of the armed forces should be at the centre of any future planning and of the sort of strategic defence review for which I am calling.
	It is clear that we are no longer in the cold war era, and it is right that our planning assumptions are changing to reflect that. We must look forward, on the basis of the nature of the threats that we think we will face in years to come. As some hon. Members have said, those can change at quite a speed. We could not have anticipated the rise of some of the forces that are emerging in the world, nor the recent posturing on the part of the Russian Federation. In this fast-changing world, it is high time to undertake another long hard assessment, and to make the revisions to our military strategy that would better equip us to fit that new environment.

Don Touhig: I welcome the announcement that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made on 8 October on Iraq, which will see troop numbers reduced to about 2,500 by next spring. The decision was made possible only as a result of the fantastic efforts of British troops who have helped to train 13,000 members of the Iraqi army. I was saddened that instead of welcoming that news, the Opposition took the opportunity for a bit of political knockabout. The public will make a harsh judgment about those who sat in the comfort of those Benches and saw the announcement as a chance to launch a political attack on the Government rather than celebrate the success of Britain's servicemen and women. Is it any wonder that the recent ICM poll showed that two thirds of those polled believe that the Tories are not fit for government?

Ann Winterton: I was saddened by what the right hon. Gentleman had to say, for the simple reason that I do not think the British public like our services being manipulated for party political reasons. Announcements were made in Iraq about which even the Secretary of State for Defence did not know, so the case that the right hon. Gentleman has made against the Opposition could equally be made against the Government.

Don Touhig: The public will judge the Conservatives' reaction on that day; I have no doubt that a harsh judgment will be made on that party.
	The conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan has meant that we are asking servicemen and women to do more than ever before, placing greater demands on them and their families. In return, therefore, we have to take on board an even greater duty to support them. I have always held the view that joining the armed forces is not like taking a job at Barclays bank or Tesco. Those who volunteer to serve their country are joining an organisation that may require them to put their life on the line, as has so tragically happened in Iraq and Afghanistan these past few years. In return for their commitment, it is our duty to ensure that they are well motivated, well trained, and equipped and protected to do the job that we ask of them. That is our true covenant with the armed forces.
	In return for the service that our forces give, Britain owes them only the very best. I am talking not simply about the best training and equipment, but about the best accommodation and support for them and their families. It is important that families are given support.
	When I served as a defence Minister, my mission statement was simple: we will value our servicemen, servicewomen and their families, our reserves, cadets their employers and their families, our veterans, their widows and their families, and we will do everything in our power to demonstrate that. That idea should run throughout our approach to our support for the armed forces.
	I could not speak of the value agenda without mentioning the campaign by veterans who fought in Malaysia to be allowed to wear the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal. I have tabled early-day motion 356 on that and hon. Members on both sides of the House have generously supported it. However, we have to do more. We have a duty to honour the commitment of the 35,000 of our boys who fought in the jungles of Malaysia. They earned that medal and they have the right to wear it. A greater degree of honour falls on them than on the members of the honours and decorations committee who are resisting the legitimate request to wear that medal. I wonder how many of those who serve on that committee served in the jungle. Probably the only jungle they know is the jungle around Whitehall.
	The value agenda should run right through the whole of our forces, from cadets to veterans, and even beyond, to our service families. Service families are very important. They really are the rock on which our people rely for support. If the families back home are happy, content and supported, the boys whom we deploy in many theatres of conflict are happy, too. Like everyone else, our servicemen and women cannot give their best in operations if they are worried about things at home. So it should be an absolute priority that servicemen and their families have the support and help they need and deserve.
	The absolute cornerstone of that is service accommodation. Armed forces personnel and their families deserve decent accommodation. Those serving must be secure in the knowledge that their families are housed in accommodation on a par with the very best on offer in Britain. While I know that the MOD is committed to improving accommodation, and some 700 million has already been spent on housing and other living accommodation, much more needs to be done.
	I occasionally smile to myself when I hear presentand yes, formersenior defence chiefs calling for more to be done to improve service family accommodation. I pressed for that, as a Minister in the MOD between 2005 and 2006, but I do not recall receiving any support from those individuals. Indeed, it was Ministers in the MOD who expressed the greatest concern about service family accommodation, not the senior officers.
	I believe that the MOD plans to spend 5 billion in the next decade and that will help, but I have one piece of advice for my successor, who takes a very real interest in this matter. He should watch his back when it comes to determining priorities. He will have to fight his corner for funding for service family accommodation, and he will find his opponents pretty formidable.
	There is no quick fix. The legacy of underfunding inherited from the previous Government means that we are tackling shortcomings that will take considerable time to resolve. It is a bit rich for the Conservatives to claim the moral high ground on the issue when it was their policy of slashing the defence budget that led to service family housing being in the poor state of repair that it is in now. Indeed, there is no more pathetic sight than the Tories trying to pitch their tent on the moral high ground. When it comes to our armed forces, they had no idea when in government and they have no credibility now. Their record speaks for itself.

Andrew Murrison: What happened to the repair and maintenance budget in the last financial year? If the right hon. Gentleman does not know, perhaps he might like to check the National Audit Office report on the subject.

Don Touhig: I am coming to an NAO report now. MOD officials appeared before the Public Accounts Committee on 28 January 1998 and they were asked whether spending constraints under the previous Government had prevented improvements to housing stock. They said yes. Who asked the question? It was none other than the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis), the present shadow Home Secretary. Contrast that with the record of this Government on spending and investment in the armed forces. We are reversing the legacy that the Conservatives left. We now have more than 20,000 new or upgraded single-living accommodation spaces and 20,000 more are planned. In this financial year, the accommodation of 900 service families will be upgraded, and there is more to do.
	I hope that my hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench will take a closer look at an idea that I examined when I was a Minister. Today, many service families aspire to own their own home and we must to do all we can to help them achieve that. We could perhaps give them a grant of, say, 30,000 towards their mortgage. That cost could be offset by savings elsewhere on other benefits. Alternatively, the Department could act as a guarantor for a certain proportion of any mortgage applied for. The Americans do that with their veterans, for example. One of the major advantages of such a scheme is that the lender is protected against loss and a favourable mortgage is obtained by the service family.
	The issue of home ownership will become increasingly important in the coming years as we move towards super-garrisons. It also extends choice to the services and meets a legitimate aspiration. The quality of service accommodation, alongside military pay and training, has a massive impact on recruitment and retention, which are the two great challenges facing us.
	Recruitment is an ongoing challenge. Our strong economy increases the challenge. I entered the House in 1995 in a by-election, and I remember that almost every door that I knocked on in my campaign was answered. In the last general election, hardly any doors were answered, because the area now has a strong economy and almost full employment. The forces now have to compete for recruits and show that joining is an attractive proposition.
	Retention is also an issue with some 20,000-plus people leaving the services each year. The skills that our servicemen and women gain during their time in the forces are desirable to those who run business and industry in the private sector. Imagine a married serviceman who has returned from a second or third deployment in the field being greeted by his wife. She will probably say, Thank God you are back. I worried about you the whole time you were away. Now you have skills that you can sell outside in the private sector. The children are growing up and we are living in awful service accommodation. How can we retain those people in the forces? We need to do more, and the deployed welfare package does help with retention.
	Let us not forget that our forces were given the best public sector pay deal this year. In fact, armed forces salary growth has exceeded growth in the whole economy in all but one of the last five years. Contrast that with the record of the Conservatives who, rather than supporting our service personnel, cut the Army by 36,000 during their last five years in government. With that record, where is their commitment to our armed forces?
	The hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), who spoke on behalf of the Opposition, but is no longer in his place, was a little coy when pressed about what they would do on public spending if they were in power. I do not know why he was coy: he should take a lead from his leader, the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron), who said in a webcast interview recently:
	There is no magic pot of money we can dip into to spend...on our armed forces.
	There we have it. If the Tories were in power, there would be no more for the armed forces. As so often in the past, the Tories are long on promises, but short on delivery. The party that cut the defence budget by 0.5 billion a year between 1992 and 1997 has not changed at all. If, God forbid, they were one day elected to power, the outlook for the armed forces would be cuts, cuts and more cuts. Contrast that with the record of this Governmentincreasing pay, improving equipment, updating medical care and accommodation, and constantly seeking to improve the package available to veterans. The Government are committed to delivering for our servicemen and women, and long may that continue.

Ann Winterton: I will try to rise above the rather carping nature of the debate. I hope that hon. Members will recognise that my motivation is concern for the welfare of our armed services and concern to provide them with the right equipment to do the job to which the nation has committed them. I welcome this debate on defence policy. It is in many ways long overdue, but I nevertheless congratulate the Government on holding it, as the subject is extremely important for the nation and our armed services.
	The three armed services have their own particular crosses to bear at present. The RAF is financially bogged down with the Eurofighter, the Royal Navy's spending is now totally dominated by the two new aircraft carriers, and the Army, under the future Army structure programme, is being reconstructed for the future rapid effect system, FRES. Everything is geared towards providing a high-tech expeditionary rapid reaction force, but no one has asked why that should be so, or has asked what has been omitted in the meantime.
	The right hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George), who, I am delighted to say, is back in the Chamber, has said in the past that the UK and its allies might have to face down the Russians again, and that is true, but we are engaged in ongoing operations in difficult counter-insurgency situations. The fact is that those at the top of the military seem to have become obsessed with high-tech, high-priced, overcomplicated new equipment. Let us take the case of the FRES vehicles; they were originally expected to be on stream by about 2010, but we will be lucky if it is 2020. It may even be later than that.

Kevan Jones: Rubbish.

Ann Winterton: The hon. Gentleman says rubbish, but I think that the point was even admitted at the Dispatch Box in debate last week. In the meantime, there is a great hole; we have insufficient numbers of the right vehicles.

Kevan Jones: I wish that the hon. Lady would do her research, and that she understood what she was talking about when making statements such as the one that she just made. I have pressed the Defence Committee hard on the subject that she raises; I am the one who has been pressing for an in-service date. Lord Drayson, the Minister with responsibility for defence procurement, has made it clear to the Committee on numerous occasions that 2012 is the in-service date. Having seen the rapid progress that he is making with that programme, I now have more faith that it will be in service by 2012. To say that may not happen until 2020 is absolute rubbish.

Ann Winterton: The hon. Gentleman expresses his opinion. We will have to wait and see who is right. I hope that we are both in the House in 2012, and that we will recall this conversation on the Floor of the House. In the meantime, the real needs of the present have been overlooked, and the hard-learned lessons of the past appear to have been forgotten. So many people thought that Iraq would be another Northern Ireland, where the use of Snatch Land Rovers was appropriate, but they were completely wrong, and many people have lost their lives or been maimed as a result. I have always given the Government credit for the provision of, and improvements to, equipment such as helmets and body armour, and surveillance equipment and electronic countermeasures that use the latest technology. That is in addition to armoury for the infantry. It is in the provision of larger equipment that things have gone horribly wrong.
	I totally agree with the comments made by the Minister for the Armed Forces a week ago concerning the Mastiff vehicle:
	there must be a range of vehicles suitable for all occasions and available for commanders to use as and when they need to do so.[ Official Report, 9 October 2007; Vol. 464, c. 200.]
	The Secretary of State is now back in the Chamber, and I ask him a direct question: did the Army fully support the original purchase of Mastiffs, or was its support given only on the condition that they were purchased outside the Army budget? I should be grateful if he responded, perhaps by letter. If necessary, I will come and see him behind the Speaker's Chair, so that we can have a chat, but I would like a response to that query.
	Let us look at the Army's new vehicles. The Panther command and liaison vehicle is a very expensive runabout, not to be used on operations. The inadequately protected Tellar bomb disposal vehicle, the Pinzgauer Vector, is an excellent off-road vehicle, but any engineer knows that a mine blast turns it into a death-trap. The so-called Supacat mobility weapon-mounted installation kit is super for the special forces, but why have 130 of them, when they are a liability for normal patrols and convoys, as an infantryman can take them out with one bullet? Who is to say that the first round of FRES for the utility vehicle will be any better? Given the recent track record, we can have little confidence in getting that right. The vehicles can be transported, one at a time, only by the A400Msan aircraft that we might never get. What sort of a rapid reaction force will that be?
	The military seem to be obsessed with fast jets, yet history has proved that small and slow is far superior for close air support. For the price of one Eurofighter we could have a squadron of Super Tucanos. They can carry the same ordnance as a Harrier, with its loud bang, but unlike the Harrier, which can be over the battlefield for no more than 20 minutes, Tucanos can loiter overhead for hours on end, ready for use in a ground attack at a moment's notice. We also tend to go in for expensive and complicated helicopters, which soak up manpower, like all complicated equipment. There appears to be little understanding of how light helicopters can be used effectively for ground attack.
	In the book review section of the August edition of  Soldier magazine, which I am sure that most people read avidly, there is a tribute to one of the
	most effective counter insurgency units of all time.
	The reference is to a book entitled The Saints: The Rhodesian Light Infantry by Alexandre Binda, which should be required reading for all top brass, so that they can appreciate how the Rhodesians used their limited helicopter resources to devastating effect. There are plenty of helicopters on the market today that can be hired at one fifth of the cost of our own aircraft, so there really is no excuse for helicopter shortages.  [Interruption.] I notice that Labour Members are amused by that statement. In all counter-insurgency situations we have complete control of the airspace, so why cannot we have total air surveillance on all key routes?

Julian Brazier: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way during her interesting and original speech. Does she agree that the issue is not just the cost of some of the platforms? In America, which has a huge civil aviation sector, as do we, they use reserve pilots, some of whom are extremely experienced and who have completed many thousands of flying hours, to pilot often much cheaper aeroplanes. As a result, they can afford much more air power per unit of cost.

Ann Winterton: My hon. Friend, who is experienced in such matters, makes a valid point, and I am sure that everyone in the House, including the Secretary of State, will take notice of it. I thank him for making that point.
	I accept and admit that unmanned aerial vehicles are being developed for surveillance purposes, but there is nothing to prevent us from putting in place light aircraft right now to give coverage 24 hours a day, seven days a week. That is what the Iraqi air force does, and that is surely the way to stop the use of improvised explosive devices, and to prevent further accidents from happening to our troops.
	I would like to raise the issue of money and manpower. We constantly hear about not having enough money and that our forces are overstretched almost to breaking point, so let us take a few lessons from history. I refer again to the Rhodesian forces. They had little money and equipment, due to sanctions, and very small numbers of men, yet they succeeded beyond all expectations. They used what they had wisely, implementing ideas from the bottom up. The only battle that they lost was the public relations battle.
	In last week's debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) said that the Ministry is also losing the public relations battlesomething that the Minister who replied did not acknowledge. It is essential for the morale of our forces that as, at times, they fight for their very lives in exceptionally hostile and difficult circumstances, they know that they have the full support of the British people. I know that they have the full support of the House; they certainly have my full support.
	British defence policy is caught in a vacuum, created in part by the military taking their eye off the ball while planning the longer term in procurement and reorganisation. In the meantime, we have been ill prepared to fight wars on two frontsin Iraq and Afghanistanand we have forgotten the lessons of the past in terms of counter-insurgency. Incidentally, Northern Ireland is not entirely relevant to the situation and no one at the top of the military has personal experience of comparable counter-insurgency, other than Air Chief Marshall Sir Jock Stirrup, who served in the Sultan of Oman's air force, operating Strikemaster jets in the Dhofar war of the 1970s.

Des Browne: indicated assent.

Ann Winterton: The Secretary of State is nodding; he will remember that what happened in Dhofar province reinforces the case for slower aircraft for ground attack. I will not expandto his relief, I am sureon that argument in this debate, although I look forward to other opportunities to enlarge on some of the issues that I have raised.

Gavin Strang: The hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) will understand if I do not take up much of what she said. However, notwithstanding the fact that the main defence procurement debate happened last week, as she knows, I cannot but respond to what she said about the Eurofighter Typhoon. It is to the great credit of this Secretary of State and his predecessorsand, indeed, the Labour party in oppositionthat they stood solidly behind the development of the Eurofighter, which is a great success story. If the hon. Lady speaks for the Conservative party, she did it no good in seeking to denigrate the plane.

Ann Winterton: The hon. Gentleman has probably misunderstood; I was not knocking the Eurofighter, but saying that it was perhaps inappropriate as a ground-attack aircraft, and that other aircraft would be better suited to that purpose. It is a question of horses for courses.

Gavin Strang: I will not go down that road, but I trust that we have the hon. Lady's support for tranche 3.
	During debates on defence, Members frequently take the opportunity to pay tribute to the calibre and commitment of our armed forces, and rightly so. Members of the armed forces put themselves at the service of the Government of the day, and through them, of the House of Commons. Surely a Minister has no greater responsibility than that of deciding to deploy our service personnel in an active role outside these islands. When people join the military, they literally undertake to put their lives on the line for the people of this country, so it is right that the House should take an active and ongoing interest in the activities of our military forces, particularly when they are engaged in operations, such as those in Iraq and Afghanistan, in which significant numbers of people will inevitably lose their lives or be injured.
	I wish to focus most of my remarks on Afghanistan, but the House will be well aware of my strong opposition to the invasion of Iraq. It is more than a year since the head of the Army, General Sir Richard Dannatt, said that we should
	get ourselves out sometime soon because our presence exacerbates the security problems.
	He went on:
	We are in a Muslim country and Muslims' views of foreigners in their country are quite clear. As a foreigner, you can be welcomed by being invited into a country, but we weren't invited, certainly by those in Iraq at the time. Let's face it, the military campaign we fought in 2003 effectively kicked the door in.
	I accept that the Labour Front-Bench team did not want to hear that, but there is still certainly a great deal of concern in this country about the invasion of Iraq. Many will take the view that the sooner our military personnel leave that country, the better.
	The background to our presence in Afghanistan is, of course, different. There was an al-Qaeda presence in that country and a consensus in this country that British forces should take part in any action to try to deal with the threat from terrorists in Afghanistan. The international security assistance force, or ISAF, in Afghanistan has been authorised by successive UN Security Council resolutions, beginning with resolution 1386, passed in December 2001. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State knows better than I, stage 1 of ISAF's presence was restricted to Kabul. The international community is, of course, supporting efforts to extend security to other parts of the country, and the role of ISAF has expanded to cover the various provinces of Afghanistan.
	In April last year, the Defence Committee reported that the ISAF operation was made up of 9,000 personnel, provided by 36 countries, 26 of which are NATO members; that is important because the ISAF mission is now led by NATO. In addition to ISAF, there is Operation Enduring Freedom, the US military campaign that fought with the Northern Alliance to remove the Taliban from power, with the US providing air power and the Northern Alliance providing ground forces. The operation continues to work separately from ISAF, but there is collaboration: for example, the air power is jointly controlled.
	The House should be grateful to the Defence Committee for the work that it has done on the UK's deployment to Afghanistan. To its credit, its members visited not only Kabul but Kandahar and Helmand province. In the past 18 months, the Committee has produced two valuable reports. The Government's response to the most recent one was published just last week. The information available is up to date.
	Reading through the two reports and the Government's responses, one is conscious of the use of two wordsthey struck me, at least: security and stability. In my vocabulary, those are certainly not interchangeable. I regard security as covering the work done to back up the Afghan military police internal security operations and to try to facilitate some sort of rough rule of law so that people can go about their daily business in peace. I would reserve stability for the economic objectives of our involvement in Afghanistan. Those are hugely important, and a welcome and significant investment has been made by the Department for International Development.
	The Government's response last week to the Committee report rightly makes a strong statement about the work of DFID, although that is not in any way to criticise the work of the Ministry of Defence. It simply means that it is right that DFID has got in so strongly and, as the Government said,
	ensured that all of its interventions have been in close consultation with the Afghan government and civil society at the provincial level and increasingly with an Afghan lead, including in the design and construction stages. This approach has demonstrated to local communities that their Government can deliver improved basic services and demonstrated the longer-term commitment of the international community.
	I do not think that there is any concern about the support for the economicand, some would say, the socialdevelopment of Afghanistan. I assume that the House is united in the hope that security might be achieved within a reasonable time scale and that the cost in lost life, whether of military personnel or the Afghan population, is kept to an absolute minimum. There is agreement throughout the House on that.
	It is right that we should look carefully at what is happening in Afghanistan. Reference has already been made to the position regarding the growth of poppies. The reality is that there are many poppy producers. The Select Committee's report does not refer much to the producers but rather to the next stages, which are easier to address. I am well aware that it is not the Government's policy to allow the military to get involved in any of the eradication process. Indeed, the report makes the position clear:
	The MOD...will not take part in the eradication of poppy until alternative livelihood schemes are available.
	The problem is that we have to accept, as my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Hamilton) said, that producers will move to alternative systems of production only when, in the long term and the short term, it is profitable for them to do so. These people are working on the land and trying to support themselves and their families. The idea that there is a military solution through eradicating the poppy crop, with the involvement of the British Government and our people, is quite wrong. Indeed, the more I study the report and the Government's response, the more sceptical I become of the entire commitment. If one looks carefully at the original terms of reference given in relation to the Government's participation in ISAF, even subsequently when we moved into Helmand province, one sees that part of our presence in Afghanistan is an involvement in dealing with the narcotics issue.
	This is not said in any spirit of criticism. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that when he tries to justify our presence in Afghanistan to his constituents, he sometimes refers to the drugs link. I have made my position on this clear on previous occasions in the House of Commons. As far as I am concerned, our responsibility in relation to drugs is to deal with consumption. The reality is that there is too much consumption of illegal drugs. It is all very well saying that a certain proportion of drugs is produced in Afghanistan, as if poppies are grown only in Afghanistan, but it is not credible to imply that any significant contribution can be made to the drugs situation in that country by our military presence there. I put that forward as the point of view of someone who naturally wants to see our forces succeed, by and large, throughout the world, as does everyone else in this House, if we agree that they should have been deployed.

Des Browne: I am concerned about two aspects of my right hon. Friend's remarks. First, as I made perfectly clear when answering an intervention on my speech, I realise that one can grow poppy in places other than Afghanistan. If we do not deal with consumption while at the same time seeking to deal with supply, then for as long as there is a market here in the developed world for heroin, somebody, somewhere, will grow poppy in order to produce it. I well understand that; his point is redundant if he seeks to persuade me of it.
	Much more importantly, does not my right hon. Friend realiseI hope that he will develop this point, because there is no discord across the House regarding his argument about where the priority of our military effort should liethat a significant amount of the insurgency in Afghanistan is paid for by the production of heroin, so there is a direct correlation between that and the violence that is visited on the people of Afghanistan and directed at our troops?

Gavin Strang: Of course I realise that, just as I realise that a high proportion of the crime in this country is related to the drugs situation. Indeed, we can debate whether we want a high price or a low price for drugs in relation to their impact on crime in general. I do not seek to get involved in an argument with my right hon. FriendI support his efforts across the piece in his Departmentbut of course I know that these people are being funded by drugs. The report refers to the scale of corruption in the countrythe whole situation is riddled with profits from drugs. The producers are just the people on the ground trying to earn an honest livelihood. We all understand that, as the report says, we are trying to go for the Mr. Bigs.
	I do not want to extend my contribution for too long, because I know that many others want to speak, including members of the Select Committee, but I will conclude on the following valid point. I was impressed by the contribution to last week's defence debate by the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt). Let me try to be a little bipartisan after my initial, justified reaction to the hon. Member for Congleton. The hon. Gentleman made an excellent speech, as my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces is aware, because he opened the debate; I am sorry that I was not in the Chamber at the time. I have no disagreement with the commitment of my right hon. Friends the Minister and the Secretary of State to trying to get the best equipment for our people, whether they are in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else.
	I was impressed when the hon. Gentleman said:
	We should not confuse our admiration for the magnificent way in which our young soldiers are carrying out their duties with a consideration of the wider merits of their task. It remains our duty constantly to assess whether the task that they are doing collectively on behalf of the United Kingdom serves British interests, and wider western liberal democratic national interests.[ Official Report, 9 October 2007; Vol. 464, c. 232.]
	I say to my right hon. Friend the Minister that there is still a fundamental consensus between the Select Committee and the Government on the narcotics work in Afghanistan; I merely question the approach, and I think that we should continue to do so.

Julian Brazier: I welcome this opportunity to discuss defence policy. I want to say a few words about the military covenant between the armed forces of the nation. I will then spend the bulk of my time considering ways in which we could have a greater involvement by the wider nation in the defence of our country.
	Last week, there was a widespread welcome for the albeit very limited changes to the armed forces compensation scheme. Yesterday, I received a reply from the Under-Secretary to a letter that I wrote contrasting the cases of Lance Bombardier Parkinson with the RAF clerk who had RSI in the fingers. I entirely accept that, as the Secretary of State said earlier, no direct comparison can be made between the two lump sums because one person is getting a guaranteed income payment and the other is not. However, the fact remains that if that guaranteed income payment for these absolutely frightful injuries were to be capitalised, a comparable civilian case would receive a much larger equivalent sum. After all, the Government of the day set the rules and make the law in this area, so why does our law place a so much higher value on civilian casualties than on military onesor rather, in this case, on someone who was uniformed at the time but had the injury in a civilian context rather than a military one?

Kevan Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give this Labour Government some credit? Before the compensation scheme was introduced, no lump sum payments were made to members of the armed forces; it was a Labour Government who brought that in. When I discussed it, along with other members of the Select Committee and members of the Public Bill Committee, at no time did Conservative Front Benchers bring up any of the points on which they seem now to have had foresight whereby they knew that it was wrong all along.

Julian Brazier: That is not what I am sayingand the hon. Gentleman knows it. I served on the Committee, too, and the total package of remuneration, pension and compensation embodied in the Bill was cash limited. It took no account of the fact that there would be fewer pensions in future because the armed forces are getting smaller, but it did take account of the fact that people were living longer. The overall value across all service personnel was actually lower. However, I am not going any further with the actuarial calculations at the moment.
	The second example on the covenant issue, much discussed in our debates and touched on again today, is the overwhelming feeling in the military that we should have a military designated wardnot just a military managed oneat Birmingham Selly Oak. No one would suggest that, in a massive accident or a crisis, those beds should always be refused to civilians, but it cannot be right for a young Royal Marine with fearful injuries from Afghanistan who has been moved back there from the field hospital to wake up and find himself between two elderly ladies, who ask him, What has happened to you, lad?, and for him to end up saying that he has had an accident at work. That is just one example.
	The wider issue of the military covenant, floated by Sir Richard Dannatt, Chief of the General Staff, should be thought about hard, and I welcome, as have other Members, the Royal British Legion's campaign to focus on it. We have to ask ourselves why we do not have homecoming parades in very many places when our soldiers return from Iraq or Afghanistan. Although it is a factor that action in those theatres does not command overwhelming public supportindeed, in the case of Iraq, it is positively unpopularthat is not the only factor.
	In Canterbury, we are proud of being garrison city for the 5th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotlandthe Argylls, as we still think of themand of being the headquarters of the 3rd Battalion the Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment. We are unusual, however. The Army is getting smaller, and it is increasingly concentrating on a few so-called super-bases. Just last month, I visited Catterick. It has an enormous military contingent, with very few civilians living in the immediate area. The Air Force has bases such as Lossiemouth and Kinloss, whose local civilian community is again extremely small. For the vast majority of people living in Britain, immediate contact with the regular forces is absolutely minimal.
	I can, however, provide an excellent example of a homecoming parade, as reported in  The Daily Telegraph yesterday:
	After six months of combat in Afghanistan, Somme Company, of the London Regiment, paraded through the City of London...Major Giles Morgan, an officer with the London Regiment said, 'The parade was absolutely brilliant. It was the first time families had seen their loved ones for a long time so it was a proud moment...It was very emotional. One soldier proposed to his girlfriend and she agreed.' The parade was hosted by the City of London Corporation, the local authority for London's financial district, the Square Mile. It included...Territorial Army soldiers, regular reservists and 26 Grenadier Guards,
	who had been placed under the command of the TA company.
	If we look across the Atlantic at the National Guard in America, we see that every state has deployed unitsnot stray individualsto Iraq, usually as parts of whole brigades. I heard all about the fantastic welcome when the Louisiana brigade returned to the state, despite its having being away during Hurricane Katrina. The TA is tiny in relation to the regular Armythe volunteer reserves in America, the National Guard and the US Army Reserve, are bigger than their regular counterpartsand as a result, our regular forces are in danger of slipping into cultural isolation.
	Much of the debate has turned on the mismatch between resources and tasks, but I put it to the House that, in looking at the future shape of our armed forces as a whole, there are three good reasons why we need greater civilian involvement in defence. The first is the one that I have just mentioned, namely that otherwise our regular military forces will become more and more isolated from the civilian community, which is rapidly happening.
	The second reason is cost. In America, where 55 per cent. of ground forces are volunteer reservists, there is obviously a big difference in cost from the comparable figure of less than 30 per cent. in Britain. The proportions are also very different in the Navy and the Air Force. I shall not speak about the Navy today because our all-party reserve forces group has just started a study of the maritime reserves.
	We can see some really striking statistics if we look at the Air Force. It costs 4 million to train a fast jet fighter pilot. When such a pilot leaves the RAF in Britain, that money is completely lost to the taxpayer. In America, such a pilot can go and join the Air Guard, which provides a third of all the fast jet fighter squadrons in the country. Because its pilots are overwhelmingly ex-regular, the training cost is minimal.
	In other areas of the American air forces, the figures are even more striking. Most of its supporting functions are provided by part-timers, who mainly fly for a living. They are extremely experienced pilots who provide a very effective back-up for the front-line aspects of the air force. Some of the Air Guard's equipment is even cheaper.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) referred to the merits of slow-flying ground-attack aircraft. The A10or Warthog, as it is nicknamedcosts about 10 per cent. of the price of a Eurofighter, but with its titanium case around the engine and the protection that it provides for the pilot, it is immensely resilient to anti-aircraft fire and, because it can loiter, it is very effective in a ground attack.

Lindsay Hoyle: But we have to remember that our aircraft industry is a world leader. What we should not be doingthere is great danger in doing itis buying off the shelf, which might take away our capability of producing aircraft. That would be a major retrograde step, which I hope the hon. Gentleman would think carefully about before seeking enhancement through buying American products.

Julian Brazier: I agree completely, but the fact remains that nobodyincluding the Conservative and Labour Governments of the past 40 yearshas ever asked our aircraft industry to produce a cheap, durable ground-attack aircraft. What we are getting for the second time round is an aircraft that is very expensive, highly specified and, in the case of Eurofighter, principally designed for air combat, at which it is arguably the best in the world. It is not designed for ground attack.
	One more example from the Air Force is the air tanker programme. I have been struggling to find the latest estimate of the private finance initiative cost. Two years ago, the figure was 11 billion, but I have since seen a forecast of 13 billion. Let us be clear what we are talking about: air tankering is a very important function that, in essence, involves converted airliners. A degree of skill is necessary, specifically in practising the tankering function, but the people involved have a skill base that is otherwise the same as that of an airline pilot.
	We are talking about expensively converting airliners that can be used to carry troops, but an awful lot of air tankering is needed at some times but not at others. There must be a cheaper way of arranging air tankering, so that we use, as the Americans do, reserve pilotsexperienced airline pilots who fly for a living anywayand consider a cheaper aircraft option, so that the aircraft do not sit about and are used either for air tankering or for air transport. We have overstretch in air transport at the moment, but that is not always the case. The Americans have the capability, which we do not have, to pull much more capacity on stream at relatively low cost.
	That brings me to the Territorial Army and the report prepared by our little all-party group. We had terrific support from the MOD, which agreed to provide us with all the information that we wanted. The Minister's predecessor, the right hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr. Ingram) came to speak to us. We subsequently received from the Minister for the Armed Forces, the right hon. Member for Coventry, North-East (Mr. Ainsworth), whom I am glad to see in his place, a very courteous and detailed reply to our report. However, it was a little disappointing that very few of the ideas that we proposed found favour, and I should like to spend the last part of my speech on three of them: deployments, recruiting and retention, and resources.
	The Territorial Army has a remarkable record on deployments: out of an organisation that is barely 30,000 strongincluding recruits and undeployable people, such as those in the Officer Training Corps13,000 have gone to Iraq and Afghanistan over the past five years. Let us remember that it was deployed to Iraq only a couple of years after a big deployment associated with the Kosovo operation.
	A growing feature of deployment, beside the pace of it, is causing considerable unhappiness in the Territorial Army: the Regular Army's demands to cherry-pick lance corporals and privates to backfill regular units, with the officers and senior non-commissioned officers being offered buckshee posts away from command. To its credit, the MOD did not give this justification in the reply to our report, but the justification that regular officers sometimes give sotto voce is, Oh well, why should we use a TA officer as a platoon or company commander to command these soldiers, when we have got somebody who's spent so many more years training in the shape of the regular officer. What we want is the rank and file to pad out the numbers in our regular units.
	The MOD gave a different reply:
	With approximately 600 members of the TA and Regular Reserve deployed at any one time, predominantly split between Iraq and Afghanistan, the infantry element is the only cap-badge where there are sufficient individuals available to deploy at sub-unit level.
	So deployment will take place by so-called cohortsgroups of mostly junior rank individuals, possibly with an officer going for a buckshee staff job. I am certain that the Minister did not mean to mislead usa lot of trouble was taken over that reply, but it is factually wrong. For the bulk of next year, formed units of the TA Royal Army Medical Corps will provide most of the medical cover in Afghanistan. In fact, to give another example, a formed unit of 131 Commando Squadron Royal Engineersa formed troop of 50 soldiershas just come back from quite a distinguished tour in Afghanistan. Its tour in Iraq on the first day of the original invasion made the front page of  The Times. So there are examples of those, apart from the infantry, who have been deployed as formed units.
	In fact, the kind of performance that I quoted from  The Daily Telegraphthe welcome and fanfare in the City of London for the London-formed companyis a model for what can be done and for how the Territorials can keep the wider community interested in the whole business of defence. Full marks to the Londons for fielding that company, many of whom had been out to serve before, and for the excellent service that they did there. All credit, too, to the Brigade of Guards, which had no previous experience of working with Territorials, and which said, We're going to treat these people seriously. It even detached a platoon of regulars to serve under its wing, because it was a three-platoon company with four tasks, so it clearly needed a spare platoon. That is the way forward that the Territorials want, rather than the cherry-picking of individuals.
	I do not mean to suggestplease do not misunderstand methat there is no scope for individuals who want to volunteer to fill gaps in the Regular Army, but the same point that has been made many times about the Regular Army applies to the TA. Just as the Regular Army needs to train for general war so that it can be used for peacekeepinga point that we used to hear many times in debates a few years ago, before Afghanistan hotted upTerritorials must have opportunities for formed-unit deployments, in which officers get the chance to command and soldiers to serve under TA officers, if they are also to be useful as a supplier of spare parts.
	That brings me to recruitment and retention in the TA. We are desperately short5,000 or 6,000 under-strength on paperand I am sure that the gap would be even larger if those who are held on strength but have really ceased to attend were taken off. The decision to hand recruiting from the reserve forces and cadets associations to the regional brigades is potentially very dangerous. The original brigades, however well they are commandedsome of them have more expertise than others in the TAdo not have the same links in the local community with business, the local media and so on as a regional organisation. It is an accident of geography that, apart from London, none of our regional brigades coincides with, for example, a television area; they all cut across boundaries, thus making things still more complicated.
	If we want to recruit good quality officers and soldiers for the TA, it is essential that regional brigades are persuaded to continue to work with the RFCAs and to find best practice among individual TA units, some of which have been very adventurous in getting into groups that are of no interest to Regular Army recruiting teams. For example, 4 Para, which we visited as an all-party group, has gone into gym clubs and rugby clubs to speak to young men in their early 20s who are too old to be interested in joining the Regular Army but who are extremely fit, would make excellent TA soldiers and would like the opportunity to go off to Afghanistan.
	That brings me finally to resourcing. In the announcement on the future Army strategy's TA section, a number of promises were made to the TA, which has suffered a long series of cuts. I shall quote two or three of those promises:
	We have, therefore, made allowance in our unit structures for both a training and a mobilisation margin...will also increase joint TA and regular training, thereby delivering more enjoyable, relevant and challenging training to the Territorial Army...about 240 permanent staff recruited to provide administration.[ Official Report, 23 March 2006; Vol. 444, c. 427.]
	The sad decision to cut 5 million from the TA's budgeta terribly small sum for the Department, but a huge sum for the TA, at nearly 3 per cent. of its budgethas meant that those promises have gone out of the window. I draw the House's attention to early-day motion 1761, which was signed by 91 Members of all parties, including most of those present at the moment. It states that the cut
	will stop all recruiting in TA units that are not making a significant contribution to current operations.
	That includes the Royal Yeomanry, which made a huge contribution to the first wave in Iraq. It also states that the cut will
	cancel Cambrian Patrol, cancel all TA involvement in the Nijmegen marches,
	two of the most exciting things in the TA, which help it to recruit and retain good quality people
	cancel divisional skill at arms meetings and freeze the recruitment of 244 non-regular permanent staff.
	Those staff were, of course, promised in the original statement.
	The TA, which is just coming up to its centenary, has made a huge contribution. It made up almost half the units deployed in the first world war, when Territorials won nearly 80 Victoria Crosses. One thinks of the defence of Calais during the second world war, where the London Rifle Brigade was praised for its gallantry by the German high command. One also thinks of the contribution made by those 13,000 Territorials in Iraq and Afghanistan.
	However, there is a limit, in the recent words of one TA officer, to how many times one can twist the Rubik cube without breaking it. The TA must be given the resources it needswe are talking about terribly small sumsand it must be given opportunities for command on operational service because of those three things that I mentioned at the beginning: we need reserve forces because they are an affordable way of providing extra capacity, because they bring civilian expertise into the defence sector and because they are a key factor in preventing regular forces from slipping into cultural isolation.

David Hamilton: The right hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) said earlier that people should not get up and speak unless they have something to saya piece of advice to one of our young colleagues across the way. In many cases that advice is sound, but then again, everyone has to start somewhere.
	I have been here for six years and I have entered into three defence debates. I have been involved with the Select Committee on Defence for the last two years. Two of my colleagues are here; it is unfortunate that the Defence Committee is away again. These debates seem to take place when it is away, which is an unfortunate bit of timing. However, the reason for my involvement in defence, and for thinking that it is an important issue for us to consider, is personal experience. I was at Capitol Hill in 2001 when the plane hit the Pentagon next door, and my colleagues and I had to run out of the Capitol building.
	I quickly realised that as an MP, I was not here just to represent my constituency, but that the decisions that I, and others, took in this place would result in people going to war and not coming back again. If I had to make such decisions, therefore, the least I could do was to try to understand exactly what the conflicts to which we send people were about. That is why I joined the armed forces parliamentary scheme, which I recommend to anyone who has not been involved with the armed forces before.
	The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) referred to deployment, and how the linkage between the armed forces and the public is now void, which is true. When I left school in 1965, I could go either to the pit, into the textile industry or to the local Army recruitment officethe Glencorse barracks is in my area. There is a link between the armed forces and my local community. There are marches in the area every year, but such links are few and far between, and do not exist in very many places. A disconnect has taken place over the years, and it is important that we understand that.
	Many previous speakers have talked about Iraq and Afghanistan, and I anticipated that that would be the position. I want to raise some specific issues about which I feel quite strongly, and refer to things that we need to develop. Like a substantial number of Members in my party, I opposed going into Iraq, and I continue to think that I was on the side of the righteous in doing so. At the end of the day, however, I have never spoken publicly against the decision to go into Iraq because it was a democratic decision taken in this House, and I was in the minority. I am from that old group that believes that when defeated, people should accept the decision taken. When the troops moved out, it was important that we were seen to support them in that conflict. That does not mean I have not had reservations about what happened, and what is happening.
	I want to make one or two points on Iraq. The first, which has been discussed during the past week, was about the commitment made to the Iraqi interpreters, who have been a major support. They have done a great deal of work not just in their interpretation duties, but in saving a great many British lives. I was glad to see the Prime Minister acknowledge that contribution by saying that we would have to support those people and ensure that they get sanctuary in this country. However, the fact is that there were 740 rulings last year on Iraqis who had supported the UK, but asylum was granted to only 30 of them. I hope that when we talk about the new dynamic, we will see interpreters being treated in a different way.
	Other hon. Members have spoken about the contribution from other countries, or lack of it, in sending people to the conflict; I suggest that those countries could make a contribution by looking after those who have been so supportive of our armed forces. We should also support them for another good reason: if we enter into any conflicts in future, the way in which we have treated those who supported us in the current conflict will be remembered. I was on BBC Scotland on Sunday, supporting the Government's position, and I listened to an Iraqi interpreter who is in Syria. He made quite clear his disappointment with what has happened in the past, and he welcomed the Prime Minister's statement because he may now be able to leave Syria and come to the UK. That applies not just to people like him, of course, but in many cases, to their families too.
	I appreciate the fact that troop numbers in Iraq, which stood at 7,200 individuals at the beginning of 2007, had gone down to 5,500 at the start of September. That number has decreased to 4,000, and by next spring it may have gone down to 2,500. It is disingenuous of many Opposition Members not to recognise that that is a major reduction. For anyone who has been supportive of our troops in Iraq, it is a good move, and I welcome what the Prime Minister has done.
	Like most Defence Committee members, I have been to Afghanistan. I was there last year, between 2 and 7 July, and we went not only to Afghanistan but to Pakistan. I would like to pick up on an earlier comment about the contribution of the Pakistani army. Some 800 troops of that army have been killed. Sometimes people criticise the Pakistani armed forces, when they are on the front line in many cases, and are losing troops hand over fist. They resent the criticisms, which are often made by people who should know better. When we met General Musharraf in Pakistan, he went to great lengths to explain how it is trying to support the UK and American forces and the United Nations in Afghanistan. We went to Camp Bastion and met a number of people down there. We were mortar-bombed one night, and someone had to wake me upI am a deep sleeper. That was first-hand experience.
	Several hon. Members have mentioned talking to members of the armed forces and finding out from them how things are. I am a reformed smoker, which means that you can go out of the way, into back doorways, to have a cigarette, and that is where you really meet the troops. They tell you what they really think of you when they are away from their officerssmokers tend to get into direct contact with them. In all my experience of the armed forces parliamentary scheme and the Defence Committee, equipment is not an issue that has been raised with me. It is important to say that. Wages, and the conditions in married quarters, have been brought up, but conditions and equipment in conflicts have not been mentioned to me.

Mark Pritchard: I note the hon. Gentleman's comments, but has he come across complaints from armed forces personnel in Iraq, Afghanistan or bothor, indeed, in other theatresabout footwear and the desert boots that are currently being used and tend to fall apart?

David Hamilton: No, those comments have not been made by any soldier to me. I represent Midlothian and I see the Highlanders who are based in my constituency, and they have not said that. They have done two tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I think that they would have told me if there was a problem. I take it that the hon. Gentleman has been told that, so there are problems with equipment, but those complaints have never been put to me. I welcome the 10 billion for equipment, and I believe that it represents a substantial increase in real terms.
	I want to consider the decision in the House some months ago about Trident. Again, I was in a minority on that matter, which is a big issue not only in the UK Parliament but in the Scottish Parliament. Most Scottish Members of Parliament, and Members of the Scottish Parliament, voted against Trident. The First Minister, who is also a Member of this House, has made it clear that he will do anything he can to stop the maintenance of the nuclear facility at Faslane. It is important that hon. Members understand that, because the issue could affect our defence capability. The First Minister argues that he could relate his opposition to EU regulations. A Green party Member of the Scottish Parliament wrote to the First Minister asking for an inquiry into the transfer of nuclear warheads around Scotland. The First Minister replied that he shared the opposition to nuclear weapons and reassured the Green party that he would go even further, take some steps to ensure that nothing was moved in or out of Faslane, and use European legislation to deal with that. It is important that the UK Parliament understands that.
	I revert to the point that I made earlier: when we are part of a democratic force, we accept the defeats as well as the victories. We were defeated on Trident in the UK Parliament. If people do not accept defeat, they should go back and try a different angle to win the fight. We cannot have a Scottish debate without having a UK debate. The UK Parliament makes the decision. It would be inappropriate if one part of Scotlandfor example, Shetlandsaid that it wanted to be independent and take all the oil without giving any to the rest of Scotland. That would change the dynamic, and the same applies to the position that I have described.
	The Royal British Legion and the covenant have been mentioned on several occasions. For anyone who attended the party conferences and found members of the Royal British Legion there, let me distinguish between the Royal British Legion and the Scottish Royal British Legion. They are separate entities. The Royal British Legion in Scotland is not involved in the covenant issues, and it is important that people understand that. The Scottish British Legion has not yet made a decision. The board of trustees has met and may decide to join the campaign at some point. If it does, that is fine. However, veterans in Scotland have been working closely with the Ministry of Defence and the Scottish Executive on the treatment of Scottish personnel who are currently serving in the armed forces and those returning home. They have been discussing not only pay but wider issues such as housing and so on. Housing is, of course, a devolved matter in Scotland. Again, it is important for information purposes to know that, for example, some inquests into deaths must be conducted in Scotland. That is being discussed with the Ministry of Defence, because legislation in Scotland is different from that in England.
	Last week, the Defence Committee took evidence in the Scottish Parliament. Mr. Derek Feeley, director of health care policy, the health care officer of the mental health division and a medical adviser were present. It shocked many members of the Committee to find that although there is a fast-track procedure in England and Wales for service personnel and former service personnel, no such distinction is made in Scotland. Personnel from a Scottish regiment based in a Scottish area are treated differently when they get home.

Kevan Jones: I, too, attended that evidence session in the Scottish Parliament last week. Was my hon. Friend also shocked by the lack of comprehension on the part of the NHS in Scotland that veterans and/or armed services families should be treated differently from the bulk of the population in the provision of medical services?

David Hamilton: I agree. Indeed, the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Willie Rennie) said during that public evidence session that he was disgusted with the contribution of the three people who spoke on behalf of the Scottish Government. He declared his disgust because they could not answer the questions that were asked and were unaware of their role in relation to the Ministry of Defence. At one point they said that they had four meetings a year with the Ministry of Defence to discuss issues that affect Scottish troops coming home and their families. That is not acceptable.

Stewart Hosie: I have heard that interesting story on several occasions today, and it must be properly addressed. Many members of the Defence Committee are here, so may I ask them whether they had taken up the matter with the NHS in Scotland previously? Is this a new situation or a legacy issue? We have been going to war for many years every year in my lifetimeso the problem is not new. Is there any sign of whether it has got worse or betteror has it simply been ignored for ever?

David Hamilton: The hon. Gentleman is obviously trying to score points against the previous Administration in Scotland. As I understand it, the fast-track system came into operation at the end of last year. It is therefore a relatively new proposal, which has not been adopted in Scotland. We were not shy of pointing that out to the previous Administration. It is important that when our troops come home, whether to Glencorse or somewhere in England or Wales, they are treated exactly the same.

Kevan Jones: Was not it also disturbing that the representatives in the evidence session had no comprehension that veterans and armed forces families should receive special treatment or be viewed as different from the rest of the population? The fundamental problem was that they did not get it.

David Hamilton: I agree with my hon. Friend. The lack of understanding disturbed me more than anything. In the two years for which I have served on the Defence Committee I have rarely seen genuine anger expressed. The Chairman had his head in his hands at one point, because he did not know how to ask the next question. The session will have been recorded, and I ask hon. Members who are interested, especially Scottish Members, to read the proceedings. Improvements need to be made.
	We need to consider health, including mental health, and education. Other members of the Select Committee will remember that the education spokesperson gave evidence last year. When we asked him about the way in which education facilities affected children, he could tell us about England but not Scotland. The problem is that the education system continues to be different in Scotland. The examination system is different. When kids come from German bases to Scotland or England, they are treated differently. If they are being educated in Germany under an English system, they must adapt to the Scottish system if they move to Scotland. In my opinionand I think in that of other members of the Select Committeethat was not tackled appropriately.
	The final issue that I will touch on is housing, which has been talked about on many occasions. We have talked about special treatment and so on, and housing is an issue that I, as someone who grew up in an area with an Army barracks, feel strongly about. My council has always had a policy on housing, and during the 30-odd years in which I have been involved in public life, I have never heard a single complaint about armed forces personnel who have served this country coming out of the Army, the Navy or the Air Force and getting priority on housing lists. That is accepted in my constituency, and it should be accepted in the 32 other local authorities in Scotland. It should be a policy that the Government adopt, and which any future Government will maintain. My final request is to ask whether the Minister would be willing to meet a number of Scottish MPs to discuss the infringements, which affect Scotland disproportionately more than the rest of the United Kingdom.

Bernard Jenkin: I am pleased to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, after hearing my colleague on the Defence Committee, the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Hamilton). I hope that you will forgive me for pointing out in this important debate about defence policy that only three members of the Defence Committee are present. However, that represents a 100 per cent. turnout, because I believe that every other member is on an overseas visit to Georgia and Turkey, at a sensitive time for relations with Turkey. That is an important visit and I am sure that each of us here regrets that we are not on it. However, we felt our loyalties torn, because we wanted to take part in this debate.
	It must be one of the most curious coincidences since Sir Cecil Rhodes discovered Rhodesia how often these defence debates, of which there are five every year, occur when the Defence Committee has already planned to be abroad. I wonder whether you could use your good offices, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to look into how often that coincidence occurs and whether the business managers of the House could not contrive to ensure that the Committee's members are more likely than not to be present and available to participate in these debates. I must also apologise to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, those on the Front Benches and the House for being unable to be present for the wind-ups for this debate, since I have had a long-standing commitment elsewhere. For that reason I shall keep my remarks short and to the point.
	I regard this debate about defence policy as one of the most important in the defence calendar. It is the one in which we can legitimately raise and discuss the very fundamentals of what our defence is about. It is usual when called to speak after a considerable number of speakers in such a debate to praise the quality of it. There have been some good speeches, but there have also been some exchanges that, I am pleased to reflect, very few members of Her Majesty's armed forces will have been bothered to witness on their television screens.
	I raised with the Secretary of State the question of the increases in the defence budget as compared with other countries. My hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) raised from the Dispatch Box the share of GDP that we spend on defence. We know in all parts of the House that the strain on the armed forces and on the defence budget is a real topic and that it is more acute than it has been for some considerable time. We know that the Government are wrestling with the dilemma and that an incoming alternative Government would have to wrestle with it, too. We also know that no ludicrous commitments will be made in the Chamber this evening about any particular level of spending. That is what Governments do in comprehensive spending reviews and spending statements; it is something that Oppositions do not do, for obvious reasons, not least because promises made by Oppositions are rarely believed by the voters.
	The crucial question that we must ask ourselves is whether the House will face up to its responsibilities and honour the military covenant, which my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) raised, which means honouring the obligations towards our servicementhose who are serving, those who are training and those who are injuredthe families who are the bereaved and the veterans who have fought for their country and now left the armed forces. Are we going to equip our armed forces for what we constantly ask them to do or are we going to carry on operating on a shoestring?
	The story of the Territorial Army, which my hon. Friend raised, is a case in point. We are talking about very small sums of money, and it is the same in terms of housing. Relatively small sums of money would make a huge difference to the quality of life of many servicemen and their families. However, the defence chiefs are confronted constantly with a choice: do they cut the capabilities that they are trying to deploy into the field for those other programmes or do they try to protect the size of their declining manpower and their delayed equipment budgets? Those are the constant dilemmas that must be faced in the Ministry of Defence, because we are trying to do too much with too little.

David Hamilton: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would accept, however, that substantial amounts of money are being spent on housing. In my constituency, 44 million has been spent on housing in the Glencorse barracks, where satellite television has been installed and where each house is now worth about 300,000. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the families absolutely love the improvements, which ensures that the personnel who fight on our behalf are well aware that they are being looked after back home.

Bernard Jenkin: I stand to be corrected, but I am informed that at the present rate of refurbishment and improvement of the defence estate and the married quarters estate, which is now in the private sector, but which depends upon the subventions from the public purse for its improvement, it will take 30 years for the housing stock to be brought up to standard. That is not acceptable. If the time were half that figure, it would not be acceptable. We need to honour our obligations to those who would give so much for their country. The hon. Gentleman most sincerely does in his case, but we need to do so as a House, as politicians of all parties.

Bob Ainsworth: The hon. Gentleman is trying to make a serious contribution, but he has said a couple of things that do not gel with that. If he is suggesting that the housing situation could be sorted out with a small amount of money, that is not true. There is already the plan to spend 5 billion over 10 years on our service accommodation. A lot of money has already been spent and a large building programme is in place.
	The other point that caused me to rise was the hon. Gentleman's argument that it was in some way illegitimate for the Government, when they are criticised about the amount of money that they spend on defence, to ask whether the Opposition plan to increase that amount. If we are not to ask that question, all the rest is surely just political knockabout, which, as he rightly says, will turn our armed forces off as soon as they switch on to this debate.

Bernard Jenkin: I accept that the amounts required to bring all the housing stock up to scratch over a long period will be substantial. My point is that spending relatively small amounts of money on the accommodation of individual servicemen can make a big difference to their lives.
	I wish to address in all seriousness the other point that the Minister raised, by asking him to address the defence planning assumptions. The Defence Committee is conducting an inquiry into commitments and resources. I understand that there has not been an inquiry into defence commitments and resources since the mid-1980sagain, I stand to be corrected if I am wrongbecause it is an extremely difficult task for the Defence Committee to undertake. We do not have a Rand Corporation in this country or the same scale of think tanks that the United States does. We rely very much on the Ministry of Defence to provide us with the sort of information that we need to make a judgment on the matter.
	One of the inquiries that we have made of the Ministry of Defence is: knowing historically exactly what the commitments have been over the past 10 years, what would the size of the Army, the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force need to have been in manpower terms to satisfy the harmony guidelines? I suppose I should not be that surprised that the MOD finds it difficult to answer that question. Will the Minister of State, perhaps not tonight but within the next few days, ask his civil servants to apply their minds to that?
	As the Secretary of State confirmed in his speech, the 1998 defence review proposed that we should be able to sustain, in addition to our ongoing commitments in Northern Ireland, Cyprus and so on, one major deployment and one minor deployment long-term commitment at any one time. For the past five years we have sustained two major deployments, which have thrown the harmony guidelines right out of kilter. I submit to the House that to satisfy the harmony guidelines for the Army alone, at the present level of commitment, the Army would have to increase not by 5,000 for the infantry, as the Chief of the General Staff proposed, but probably by about 30,000. We all know that soldiers like to be busy and challenged, and most do not need or want the full gap between tours. That figure, however, indicates how far short we are from matching our manpower and capabilities to our present commitments.
	Extraordinarily, we heard from the Secretary of State another bit of wishful thinking that somehow the draw down from Iraq and Northern Ireland will at last create some slack in the system. Ever since the strategic defence review took place, the Government have looked forward two or three years to the time when the harmony guidelines would be met and equilibrium restored. Surely by now we have learned that we cannot opt out of all the global strategic challenges around the word, and that there simply are not enough countries alongside France and the United Statesand possibly Russia and Indiathat can deploy and sustain an expeditionary capability at the scale to deal with the modern security challenges that we face. Therefore, the question that the Government face, and that an incoming Conservative Government would also have to face, is whether to bulk up our armed forces to meet the modern security challenges or to opt out of those global security challenges, on which our security and that of our allies depend.
	We should be prepared to contemplate the kind of step change in expenditure seen in other public services: the Government have managed to find large sums for health, education, transport and overseas aid. Why has defence been the Cinderella of our public services when much of the country's freedom and prosperity ultimately depends on the hard power that we deploy to intervene in crisis situations around the world, for our own national interests as well as for the good of the international community?

Mark Hendrick: The Government are committed to our armed forces, and that is manifested in spending. I will refer to some of the points raised by the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin).
	Between 1979 and 1997, annual average defence spending fell in real terms. In the five years prior to our coming into office, it fell by 500 million per year. The size of the Army decreased by 50,000 between 1990 and 1997 and by 35,000 in the last five years of the Conservative Government. Given that defence spending under this Government has increased by 1 billion a year, the criticisms from Members such as the hon. Member for North Essex seem strange.
	In real terms, the defence budget will be 10 per cent. higher by 2010-11 than it was in 1997. As the Chancellor outlined in the comprehensive spending review, the Government will spend an additional 7.7 billion by 2011. In addition, the Treasury will continue to fund operations over and above the defence budget, from the reserve. Since 2001 it has provided from the reserve approximately 6.6 billion to support our troops on the front line, which flies in the face of what the hon. Member for North Essex said.
	Our commitment also manifests itself in equipment. Our armed forces have a tremendous battle-winning capability, which is getting better all the time. In the past three years, the Government have developed and delivered equipment valued at more than 10 billion, and priority is given to equipping people training for operations. The Government continually monitor and respond to the capability and protection requirements of our troops, and have spent more than 2.2 billion on urgent operational requirements. More than 1 billion from the Treasury reserve was spent on force protection.
	Over the past few years, the MOD has introduced a range of new systems that have significantly enhanced capability. When we discuss the number of aircraft or troops, we often overlook the fact that modern weapons systems have so much more capability: protected mobility vehicles; new body armour; communications and surveillance equipment; night vision equipment; electronic counter-measures; and improvements in base security.
	The comprehensive spending review will allow the MOD to proceed with two new aircraft carriers, which will be the largest ships ever operated by the Royal Navy. By the end of October, 47 Eurofighter Typhoons will have been delivered to the RAF. I am proud that those were developed and assembled by many thousands of skilled BAE Systems staff who live in and around my constituency in Lancashire. As an aside, I would like to mention the fact that there is an umbrella contract for 620 aircraft to be delivered in three tranches; tranche 2 builds are well under way and BAE is working towards tranche 3 proposals by the end of 2007. There are also several promising export opportunities to Japan, India, Switzerland and Greece.
	The Government have also shown their commitment in recruitment. According to the National Audit Office report in November 2006, the armed forces have recruited 98 per cent. of their target since 2000-01. On 1 April 2007, the full-time trained strength of the armed forces177,760represented 96.8 per cent. of the full-time trained requirement. Army recruitment is up 10 per cent. this year, the number in training has risen by 2,110 since January 2006, and fewer trained personnel left the armed forces than at this point last year. Given the current economic situation, that is a significant success.
	Despite that, recruitment remains a challenge. Thousands of new recruits are needed each year, and the market is challenging because the economy is doing so well. The armed forces face competition from other employers and further education. The MOD recognises that there are specific staff shortagescommonly known as pinchpointsin the infantry, Royal Marines, medical specialists and parts of the helicopter force, for example. The NAO report suggested that the MOD make improvements to accommodation, equipment and training to help to retain staff, and new retention measures have therefore been implemented.
	A good deal has been said about pay. The lowest-paid servicemen are receiving pay increases of 9.3 per cent. All other ranks are getting pay increases of at least 3.3 per cent.
	The operational welfare package introduced by the Government provides benefits such as free internet access, free phone calls, free mail, a rest and recuperation package and 20 days' additional leave after a six-month tour. The package has been independently assessed twice by the Armed Forces Pay Review Body and deemed one of the best available in comparison with packages given to other armed forces around the world, including those of our allies.
	As has just been mentioned, the Government are showing their commitment to the provision of accommodation. To date, 95 per cent. of service families' accommodation in Great Britain is rated at standards 1 and 2, 1 being the highest and 4 the lowest. However, the Government have acknowledged publicly that some service accommodation is simply not good enough. That is rightly one of the MOD's priorities, but, as my right hon. Friend the Minister pointed out, resolving the issue will take time. As has been said, 700 million has been spent this year, and over the next decade the sum will increase to up to 5 billion.
	The Government are also improving support for armed forces personnel who wish to buy their own properties. Like those in the rest of society, many people in the armed forces aspire to own their homes. The MOD works closely with the Department for Communities and Local Government to encourage servicemen and women to get on to the property ladder, and to take advantage of shared-ownership schemes such as the key worker living programme.
	We must consider the changing nature of our defence requirements. The world has changed immeasurably since the end of the cold war, and as a result the threats to our national security have taken different forms. Threats no longer come in the shape of uniformed armies that adhere to the rules of war; there are new threats from enemies who are not easily discernible from civilians. Their methods do not respect any rules of war, and victory is not generally gained via direct battle.
	In December 2003 the MOD published its analysis of the future security environment in its White Paper Delivering Security in a Changing World, which identified three issues as the main threats to the United Kingdom's national security: international terrorism, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, and the phenomenon of failed states that can provide havens and sources of support for terrorists and criminal networks involved in the drugs trade or the plundering of natural resources. In addition, internal conflict, poverty, human rights abuse and famine can create the conditions for mass population movements, causing pressure on neighbouring countries or encouraging a surge in migration to Europe.
	In future, multiple, concurrent, small-to-medium-scale peace enforcement or peacekeeping operations will become the norm, but the ability to undertake large-scale intervention operations such as that in Iraq in 2003 will remain important. In March 2003, the MOD's joint doctrine and concept centre published its assessment of security threats to the United Kingdom over the next 30 years. It argued that the greatest risk to security would come from the United Kingdom's being unable to acquire or apply resources fast enough to meet the changing threats. That must be of concern to our Ministers, as it will have an impact on our armed forces. It is assumed that in future the UK will generally participate as part of a coalition, and that the most demanding operations are likely to involve the United States. However, European Union co-operation will certainly be necessary, and a coalition operation with the EU when the United States is not involved is a strong possibility.
	We still face many challenges. I want to say a little about Iraq and Afghanistan. There have been many challenges in Iraq, and it cannot be denied that the security situation there is difficult, as it is in Afghanistan. However, British forces have achieved much in both countries. In Afghanistan, school enrolment has quadrupled in the past four years. More than 5 million children are now at school, a third of whom are girls. Enrolment in higher education has also increased. There are currently about 180,000 teachers in Iraq, and 1.2 million illiterate people are participating in literacy courses. Some 82 per cent. of the population of Afghanistan are receiving health packages or health care of some kind.
	It cannot be denied that serious problems persist in Iraq, especially in Baghdad, which accounts for about 80 per cent. of the violence. However, the British forces are achieving huge success. They have handed over three of the states in southern Iraq, as well as Basra city, to the control of the Iraqis, and, as the Minister said, by next spring the number of British troops will have fallen to around 2,500.

Mark Pritchard: The hon. Gentleman has been describing what he considers to be a success. I agree with most of what he has said, but does he see a contradiction in the fact that every day people from Iraq and Afghanistan seek asylum in the United Kingdom? If things were a little better, would we not see a decline in the numbers?

Mark Hendrick: I think there is a decline, to some extent. I speak from experience, because in my constituency I am visited by people from Iraq and Afghanistan who complain that they may have to return to those countries because of the improved security situation, having found a much more secure situation in the United Kingdom. So the position is improving, although that is not easily visible from our limited viewpoint here in the UK.
	As I have said, plenty of positive developments are taking place, but many other factors will affect the future of our armed forces. One that came to light fairly recently as a result of a number of reports is climate change, and the way in which it will affect our security environment in the future. According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies,
	The security dimension will come increasingly to the forefront as countries begin to see falls in available resources.
	The Nobel peace prize, which is intended for those who
	shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between the nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding... of peace congresses,
	was recently awarded to Al Gore and the scientists of the United Nations intergovernmental panel on climate change for their work on global warming. Global warming is a huge security threat.
	Another thing of which we shall need much more in the future is international co-operation. That means co-operation with the United States, through NATO and through our European Union allies, which will become much more important as the requirements of defence systems become more expensive and sophisticated. We shall see increasing integration of European forces with those of the Americans.
	I believe that the Government have shown a genuine commitment to the armed forces in all the ways that I have outlined, and I am sure that they will continue to do so into the distant future.

Stewart Hosie: This has been a wide-ranging debate. I shall touch on only three areas of defence policy. I apologise for being absent for part of the debate; I did not want to miss a meeting with the Border and Immigration Agency. I hope that I do not repeat things that were said earlier.
	The hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Hamilton), who is not in the Chamber now, raised a number of serious issues, including that of housing for service personnel returning home after duty. He said that in his area it had always been accepted that soldiers would be given houses as long as they were available, and that he had no evidence that it was different anywhere else. I paraphrase what he said.
	I have received a telephone call from a serving soldier in Germany who, when he telephoned his local housing department back home, was told that he should return and declare himself homeless, as that was the only way in which he could get on to a housing list and obtain accommodation. That was wholly wrong and unacceptable, and I agree with the hon. Member for Midlothian that it should never happen in any part of the country.
	I want to say something about the regiments and the golden thread. At the time of the merger of the Scottish regiments into a single Royal Regiment of Scotland, undertakings were given to preserve the golden threadthe link and connectivitybetween regiments and communities. In the past, General Sir Mike Jackson described the regimental structure as being
	the absolute bedrock to us.
	He went further, saying that the golden thread represented
	the heritage, the history, the sense of belonging that is very much in our minds.
	He was right to say that.
	However, many of the symbolsonly a minor element of this issuesuch as cap badges, hackles, kilts and sporrans, as well as regimental traditions, have been quietly done away with. There is now a common parade kit for all five battalions in the Royal Regiment of Scotland, and soldiers of The Black Watch, now the 3rd Battalion of the Royal Regiment, can wear the distinctive red hackle only when in combat uniform.
	Perhaps more important than the regimental traditions is the fact that recruits who could previously declare a preference for their local or family regiment are now expected to join battalions where there is a shortfall of troopsfor example, 313 men in the Royal Regiment as of September. Those wishing to join up might now be encouraged to join a battalion other than the one that previously would have been their local regiment. It is not hard to draw the conclusion that one reason behind the failure to recruit and retain is the fact that people can no longer simply join the local regiment or even join the battalion within the Royal Regiment of Scotland with which they would most closely identify. I hope that the Government will look again at the conduct of recruitment and retention, particularly within the battalions of the Royal Regiment, although my preference would, of course, be to return to the proper regimental structure.
	The defence industry has a significant economic impact, so I shall now turn to jobs and procurement. As well as providing equipment to the services, the defence industry is vital to the Scottish and UK economy. A major issue is how and where the procurement and jobs are shared out. We acknowledge that Scotland is allocated a large chunk of the total amount of expenditure on personnel recruitment8.5 per cent.but we also know that the number of people recruited from Scotland into the MOD, service personnel and other bodies is far less than that share represents. We are also aware from the last year for which we have detailed analysis that although 8.5 per cent. is the share of money allocated for procurement of equipment in Scotland, the actual amount of money spent on procurement in Scotland is significantly less. The shortfall in personnel recruited and equipment procured from Scotland amounted to 750 million.
	This is not a Scotland-England or Scotland-UK issue: other parts of the UK would say precisely the same. The armed forces should mean something to everybodyin terms of the buy-in to themand the Government have it within their power, to some extent at least, to ensure that the moneys are spent as evenly as possible throughout the UK.

Eric Joyce: Is the hon. Gentleman not trying to have it both ways? He wants the benefit of a critical mass of UK defence expenditure and what that brings to the Scottish industrial base, but he also wants independence, under which he would lose all that. No orders would be placed in Scotland if Scotland was not a part of the United Kingdom.

Stewart Hosie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention because it allows me to make my point. In the past 10 years there have been 4,700 MOD job losses in Scotland. In addition to the shortfall in actual recruitment and procurement from Scotland, the MOD has shrunk there. The job losses are as follows: 1,000 at RAF Lossiemouth, 160 at RAF Leuchars, 180 at RAF Kinloss, 350 at HMS Gannet, 1,500 at Rosyth shipyard since 1997, 1,500 at Coulport since 1999, in addition to some 900 or so at the Clyde shipyards, and eight bases and two supply depots have been run down and closed. Therefore, the argument that a Union dividend protects jobs and services and MOD facilities simply is not true.

Kevan Jones: Does not the hon. Gentleman's party leader want to add to that? If he carries out his threat to stop the UK nuclear deterrent being sited at Faslane, there will be more job losses not only at Faslane itself, but at Coulport, where the missiles are stored, and in the ancillary industries linked to the nuclear deterrent. I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways.

Stewart Hosie: That is an interesting point, but previous answers from the MOD contradict that, particularly when they are put alongside research conducted by the Scottish Trades Union Congress and others. The MOD stated in a parliamentary answer of February 2005 that the number of civilian jobs that directly rely on Trident was 936, with 300 jobs indirectly relying on ita total of about 1,200 jobs.
	The STUC tells us that the cost of Tridentthe 1 billion a year from general taxation that is simply the capital cost, notwithstanding the 25 to 75 billion lifetime costis equivalent to 3,000 jobs in other services, because the money will have to come from somewhere, and I suspect that the Government will not want to raise taxes.

Mark Pritchard: Is the hon. Gentleman therefore saying to the Houseand to Scotland and his constituentsthat those 1,200 jobs do not matter and that their loss is a price he is willing to pay for removing the nuclear deterrent from Scotland?

Stewart Hosie: Absolutely not. It is important to remember that Scotland has fewer naval and air force bases than a comparable country such as Norway. We are committed to retaining all the bases, to provide the basis for a properly funded conventional defence force in Scotland. No one is talking about jobs being lost. My point is that the argument that we hear time after time from the Government overstates the number of dependent jobs. The proportion of personnel recruited and equipment procured from Scotland is considerably lessabout 750 million lessthan the annual share of the budget allocated to it.

Kevan Jones: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. Has he visited Faslane or Coulport? It is mind-boggling to imagine what a conventional force might do with the specialist equipment for handling and resupplying nuclear submarines; I am not sure what conventional defence use the storage facility at Coulport could have.

Stewart Hosie: The naval bases on the west and east coasts would be maintained because they would be the east and west coast naval bases for the Scottish defence forces. That is vital.
	I have made three points in this wide-ranging debate. The regiments issue is vital because there has been a shortfall in recruitment and retention, and we believe that the association with local regimentsnow local battalionsis so weakened that it is leading to people not joining up and not staying. We are concerned about that.

Mark Hendrick: The hon. Gentleman talks about a shortfall in the number of troops in Scotland joining Scottish regiments. I live in an Army town and I have barracks 300 yd from my house. I meet troops regularly in my local pub, many of whom are from Scotland and are happy to serve in Lancashire and elsewhere in England rather than in Scotland.

Stewart Hosie: People have the right to join any regiment or corps that they wish, but we have a target contingent for the Royal Regiment of Scotland, and it has a shortfall at present of more than 300. That is an ongoing problem that the removal of the Scottish regiments did not solve. We need to address it properly; otherwise, we will continue to have a shortfall, not only within the Royal Regiment of Scotland but in other regiments in England and elsewhere.
	The second point was about the procurement of equipment and the recruitment of personnel. If we are to make the armed forces meaningful for everybody, the Government have it within their power to look at how and where procurement is secured, and at how the budget for recruitment is spent to ensure that the necessary personnel are attracted from all parts of the UK. A huge amount of money is being spent. A large chunk has been allocated to Scotland, and we are well aware that not all of it is being spent in Scotland.
	The third point is a point of principle about Trident. The lifetime cost of its replacement will be between 25 billion and 75 billion. We know that 61 per cent. of the Scottish people oppose it and think that the Scottish Parliament should have the power to decide the issue. We know that the majority of Scottish Labour MPs oppose the Trident replacement. The vote in the Scottish Parliament was, I think, 71 to 16 against replacing Trident, so there is a massive groundswell of opinionpolitical and publicagainst replacing the Trident nuclear missile system in Scotland. The Government must of course take cognisance of thatand that, of course, is before we enter into any discussions about the morality or legality of nuclear weapons.
	I will not touch on Iraq or Afghanistan. This has been a wide-ranging debate, and many other Members have made salient points about those countries. However, irrespective of our opposition to the war in Iraq, it goes without saying that once the troops are in situ, they should be backed 100 per cent., as one would expect.
	I do hope that the Minister will, in summing up, look at the three substantive issues that I have raised. The first was recruitment, particularly to the Royal Regiment of Scotland, and the second was recruitment of personnel and procurement of equipment generally, and how the money is spent. Thirdly, I am sure that he will want to make a robust defence of why the Government want to spend 75 billion on a replacement for the Trident nuclear weapons system, at a time when there is overstretch, when there are constant complaints about a shortage of equipment and when the recruitment policynot just in Scotland but elsewhereis putting huge pressure on service personnel, who are being sent out for repeat tours, against the guidelines of the MOD.

Eric Joyce: I have two fairly brief points to make, but, first, I want to make a brief subsidiary point, having listened to the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie). His defence planning is based not on capabilities and resources, but on what badges and tam o'shanters personnel will wear; having done that, one is then supposed to work out how to build force levels and configurations. I do not know whether the Scottish National party still plans simply to line up people up and down the east and west coast of Scotland, looking outwards, but it does rather sound like that. That is all rather hilarious.
	The two issues that I want to raise have been mentioned by a number of speakers, but it does no harm to reiterate them. The first issue is housing. Perhaps I might swing the lamp for a bit. In the 1980s, I lived in a military house that had an outside toilet. In retrospect, I swear that it was a cunning plan by the then Conservative Government to toughen the troops by making them run through the winter cold every time that they went for their ablutions. Every time that we went to the toilet, it was like an SAS selection course.
	A number of things have been said tonight about what the Government are doing about single living accommodation, and to emphasise how much we need to spend on this issue, on which we need to spend the most at the moment. It is important to remember and to reflect on how we got to where we are now. We need to spend billionsas I understand it, 5 billion is planned to be spent over the next 10 yearsto bring service personnel accommodation up to standard.
	We arrived at this point in a particular way, and I remember what happened rather well. In 1996this has probably been said before in this place, but it is good to get it back in  Hansard from time to timethe then Tory Government sold off 56,700 MOD homes. It was described as the single largest transfer of residential property in the UK, which it was. According to some accounts, the receipts totalled 2.6 billion, but my recollection is that they totalled 1.9 billion. All the financial press agreed that the property was preposterously under-priced. It was sold fast, so that the then Tory Government could throw a wagera rather hopeless oneon their winning the following year's election.
	The then right hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate, Michael Portillo, whom we see doing political analysis on television, had a number of good jobs in government, and he was a very senior politician in his own right. However, I am not sure, when he looks back on his career, that he will regard his time at the MOD as the best time of his life in politics. In fact, I believe that I have heard him say that on television in relation to a different matter that we need not mention at the moment.
	The transaction to which I refer was undertaken in return for a contract that involved the MOD retaining responsibility for maintaining the 56,700 homes. Some 11 years later, I still ask myself why the MOD is still this huge landlord with a huge maintenance bill. The then Government tied themselves to this arrangement in 1996, which has had the obvious knock-on effect of a contractual obligation that today's Government still have to honour.

Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that the situation is even worse than he describes? If housing becomes surplus under this contract, not only do the MOD and the taxpayer have to pay money to renovate the houses; in some cases, they have to make substantial improvements at huge cost, and then hand the property back to the private company that my hon. Friend is describing.

Eric Joyce: That is absolutely right. Indeed, a Patrick Barkham article in  The Guardian back in April dealt with this issue. Essentially, when the accommodation becomes surplus, Annington, which owns it, refurbishes it and sells it on. I might be wrong and the Minister might want to correct me, but, as I understand it, there is no formal mechanism by which those houses can be awarded to service personnel, or offered to them with some form of discount.
	In the case of RAF Coltershall, which was referred to in the newspapers, Annington agreed that half the houses would go to service personnel.  The Guardian cited the case study of a woman and her family who literally camped out for several days to get a house, because they were required to spend 22 of every 24 hours in the queue. Her husband was in Iraq, and in order to succeedthe price had not been confirmedthey had to queue up. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that when he winds up. Although this issue is not the MOD's responsibility, I hope that it can persuade Annington to look again at whether it is appropriate to have the families of service personnel camping in a field to get a surplus house.
	Before I came to the House tonight, I visited the website of Terra Firma, a powerful and successful private equity company that I would not criticise per se, and which put together this deal. As I understand it, the Nomura bank was the primary investor. However, it did not have that English, home counties twang, so Anningtonthe name sounded a bit more English, and a little more acceptable to some who objected at the time to a Japanese investment bank taking over MOD quarterswas chosen as the name of the vehicle. However, that is ancient history.
	I was interested to read how Terra Firma describes what it does, and why it is so successful as a private equity vehicle. We should bear it in mind that the following was written in 1996, after 17 years of Tory government:
	Terra Firma focuses on businesses where our views differ from the market consensus. Companies that are out of favour, usually as a result of being neglected, under-managed or under-invested by their owners.
	That is the state that MOD housing was in at the end of the period of Conservative government. After years of neglect, the then Government sold off housing cheap, hoping to bolster their chances at the following year's election. That clearly did not work, but the last thing on their minds when they sold those houses and created the mess that we have today, which the Labour Government are doing their very best with, was the welfare of service personnel.
	The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) made a number of excellent points about garrisons. There is a danger that the big garrisons that we inevitably have now will lead, if we are not careful and do not take appropriate steps, to a greater degree of insularity, in that fewer people in civilian life will have contact with service personnel. That is why the Territorial Army is so very important. The hon. Gentleman talked, as did several other Members, about the military covenant. We need to think of it not simply as a covenant between the armed services and the Government. It is about much more than thatit is about society and the way that society is.
	Earlier, I was fiddling around with my biro, wondering about its size. It is bigger than a 5.56 mm round, but a bit smaller than 7.62 mm ammunition. However, let us say that it is the same as the latter. Looking at it, one can see the sort of bullets shot at British service personnel by enemies across the world. That is why I prefer to call the military covenant rule 762: it is easier and has a nicer ring to it.
	The term military covenant is one that people who are not acquainted with military language, acronyms and the oddities of the way we speak about service issues find hard to get their heads around. It means that service personnelof all countries, as the concept is not confined to Britaintake extraordinary risks on behalf of their nation and that, in return, that nation honours them and looks after their unique needs. No one can argue with the concept, so the question is not whether we agree with it, but whether we observe it.
	The Royal British Legion campaign makes some valid policy points, although other elements are more arguable. Yet all hon. Members will agree that it makes an important philosophical point, and that it poses a question that society at large must answer. I do not want to sound too high minded, but I believe that all Members of Parliament, like many people outside, have a role to play in reminding the public of the extraordinary things that our service personnel do for our country. Every time people fiddle with a biro, they can use their imagination to remind themselves of the military covenantor rule 762, if they prefer to call it that.
	Service personnel face extraordinary dangers on our behalf. The responsibility to ensure that that is remembered does not lie only with politicians or people interested in politics, but with society as a whole.

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: In this debate, I want to consider globalisationhow we can face the challenge that it poses, the role played by defence in doing so, and the interaction between defence policy and international development policy. However, before I touch on those matters, I want to take advantage of my first opportunity since the conclusion of the naval base review to convey the thanks of Portsmouth people to the Ministry of Defence and the Secretary of State for the far-sightedness and excellent judgment displayed in their decision to keep all three of our bases open.
	That, of course, was what we in Portsmouth advocated all along, for sound military and strategic reasons. We also had a sound financial case, and I should like to place on record my thanks to everyone involved in the campaign. That included neighbouring MPs from all parties, the South East England Development Agency, the Government office for the south-east, the city council, the Royal Navy, our industrial partners in the naval base, the trade unions, our local newspaper, the people of Portsmouth, and the many serving and ex-serving Royal Navy personnel from all over the world. They could not imagine Portsmouth without the Royal Navyor, indeed, the Royal Navy without Portsmouth.
	The announcement that the bases were safe from closure has given a huge boost to the morale of all who work in the naval base. Yesterday, I welcomed our new Minister for the South East, my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Jonathan Shaw), to Portsmouth and accompanied him on a very quick tour of the naval base. The important thing that I pointed out to him was that the success of our operations in Portsmouth was due to partnership working between the Navy and our industrial partners, which I believe to be an example of best practice.
	The Minister was able to see that for himself on a visit to the VT Shipbuilding yard, when he inspected the bow sections of the type 45 destroyers that are under construction there. We were, of course, also able to show him where we are going to berth the two new aircraft carriers. They will dwarf any other ship that is or ever has been based at Portsmouth, and will be a very visible reminder to the people of the city of its strategic importance to the defence of our nation.
	The wider message of the decision to keep all three bases open, and of the announcement of the decision to go ahead with building the two new aircraft carriers, is that this Labour Government are committed to a strong Royal Navy that is able to carry out its duties, not just patrolling our own shores, but further afield. Given that most of our world is water, the carriers will ensure that Britain's contribution to being a force for good in the world includes a strong maritime presence. As many hon. Members have said, it is unlikely that we will act on our own as a nation state in the foreseeable future. We will be acting as part of a multinational coalition, so the two new carriers will mean that we will be bringing some serious equipment to the table, and that our voice is heard in a multinational maritime strategy.
	That brings me back to the argument about globalisation. Over the past 10 years, we have heard a lot about the challenge of globalisation, but mainly in an economic context. The global market place is much more developed than it was even 20 or 30 years ago. In the new global electronic economy, finance and capital can be transferred around the world at the click of a mouse. Products can be produced in, and services provided from, anywhere in the worldbut a question mark hangs over how far nation states can manage their own destiny. For a recent example of that, we need look no further than what happened with Northern Rock: that problem was caused not by our economic actions, but as a consequence of lending decisions in the US.
	One of the biggest effects of globalisation is the transfer of information. The advent of satellite communicationsby the way, that is yet another technology manufactured in Portsmouthmeans that instantaneous communication is possible between one side of the world and the other. We have seen the effect of that already in the defence context, with pictures from operational theatres being sent by mobile phones. We have had to modify our rules and regulations to take account of that.
	However, instantaneous electronic communication is not just about conveying information more quickly. It is about information reaching people who have never been reached before, despite the efforts of the nation state to prevent it. Again, we just have to look at the events in Burma a few weeks ago to see an example of that.
	So, in defence terms, where does that leave the nation state? Professor Anthony Giddens has said:
	nations no longer have enemies...Nations today face risks and dangers rather than enemies, a massive shift in their very nature.
	Is he right? If so, we need a defence policy not against a specific enemy, as in the days of the cold war, but one that is flexible and enables us to respond rapidly to whatever risks and dangers may emerge.
	Is globalisation one of those risks? Is it a threat against which we should be defending ourselves, or is it a good thing that we should encourage, as it opens up the world and opens up opportunities for people to grow and develop? It is probably both: we do not have to look too far into the future to see a growing world population, with everyone competing for limited resources, such as water, food and energy. Inevitably, that will produce tensions. We can see new, growing economies quite rightly wanting their share of those resources as they develop, and people in those countries wanting to share in the lifestyles that they are increasingly able to see in more developed countries through the internet and mobile phone networks.
	We must ensure that competition for resources is based not on defending or trying to seize access to the world's resources by force, but on encouraging stability and democracy in less developed states, and in states that are unstable and have no democratic rule of law. So defence policy, foreign policy and international development policy become increasingly intertwined, and our modern armed forces must be equipped with the training and the resources to undertake that increasingly multi-faceted role.
	In June I was lucky enough to visit Afghanistan, where I saw that multi-faceted role in action. We are not in Afghanistan as part of an invading force taking over the country, but at the invitation of the Afghan Government to help them bring about democracy and stability, which the people of Afghanistan need so that they can move forward. When our forces go into villages in Helmand province and ask villagers what they wantschools, hospitals or roadsthe answer is always security first. They want security for themselves and for their children, and only then do they want health care, transport infrastructure and education.
	Democracy and stability in Afghanistan are also in our national interest, to prevent the country from becoming a base for international terrorism that threatens our safety and security. That does not apply just to Afghanistan; we need democracy and stability in all nation states if we are to prevent future armed conflict in a growing world population eager to share in growth and prosperity, but competing for limited resources.
	In Afghanistan it is clear that we shall not achieve that objective with firepower alone: to use a well-worn phrase, shock and awe are not enough. We need to use another well-worn phrase, and win over hearts and minds. The Taliban do not have popular support among the Afghan people, most of whom are afraid of them. The Afghan people need to know that the international forces are in it for the long term, and that we will not abandon them if the going gets rough. The worst of all worlds would be for them to kick the Taliban out with our help, only for us to decide to pull our troops out of Afghanistan because it is too dangerous.

Mark Pritchard: The hon. Lady is making an excellent contribution to the debate. Will she join me in congratulating the Government of Pakistan on their recent efforts on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, which have achieved success in taking out much of the Taliban leadership in that area? That success has been a long time coming, but now that it has arrived it is most welcome, so I hope she will endorse the actions of the Pakistani authorities.

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, and I am happy to support his comments. When I was in Afghanistan, the conversations I held with the ambassador made it clear that Afghanistan alone could not solve the problems; the solutions have to be regional.
	Winning over hearts and minds is a slow, painstaking process; we need to win people's trust. Earlier, the Secretary of State laid out our achievements in Afghanistan, not in traditional military terms of enemy killed or ground taken, but in terms of the number of children in school, how many of the population have access to basic health care and how far we have reduced poppy cultivation. In the north of the country, we have achieved a reduction. Contrary to the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang), who is no longer in the Chamber, military contributions helped in that process, because peace and stability in the north were achieved first. Farmers feel that poppy cultivation now poses more risks, which they are not prepared to take. They have more choice and feel more comfortable exercising it, because they know that the police and the Government will back them up. Our military presence is delivering for the Afghan police and Government the capability to do that.
	We have a long road to travel in the rest of Afghanistan, especially in Helmand, but just because we do not always measure our achievements in military terms does not mean that they are not military achievements. During my visit to Afghanistan, I was struck by the understanding among troops at every level of the complex nature of the operations they were facilitating and the delicate balance that had to be struck: on the one hand, raw soldiering to drive out the Taliban, and the next day setting up a shura, or village community meeting, finding out who the tribal leader is and helping them decide for themselves what they want for their community.
	Every soldier, sailor and aircrew member I met understood the politics of the situation; they understood the tribal nature of the population and the need to establish real Afghan ownership of the reconstruction projects under way. I can tell the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) that is not an aspirationit is happening. Afghan faces do not merely head up projects; local Afghan labour is being used.
	Some of the service personnel whom I met who were doing that work were from the joint CIMICCivil Military Co-operationgroup. Such an undertaking is nothing new. A civilian-military liaison branch of the Army was first set up in 1941, and in 1944 and 1945 teams moved into liberated towns in France and Germany, along with the leading troops, to occupy local government offices and establish authority. In 1997 the joint CIMIC group was establisheda specialist unit that manages the interface between military and civilian organisations wherever British forces are deployed on operations.
	The majority of personnel in the unit are reservists who hold civilian jobs and have specialist skills for the type of work undertaken. I echo the remarks of the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) in welcoming that work, and I too hope that more reservists will be used in that way, especially in Afghanistan.
	During my visit to Afghanistan, some of the most heart-warming and positive stories that I heard about reconstruction were from CIMIC personnel. The one that sticks most in my mind was from a Royal Navy female reservist officer who works with women in the villages. She speaks Pashtu and Dari, so that she can talk to the women in their language, and she is now on her second six-month tour of duty. She is working on a project with widows, because in Afghan society widows, with no husband to protect or support them, are totally isolated and have no income. The CIMIC officer works with village elders to set up women's centres that provide training in skills such as tailoring or chicken farming. Other projects offer micro-finance, so that women can start their own businesses and bring money into their local village community. As yet, there is no proper adult literacy programme in Helmand, so the officers are also teaching the women to read and write through these women's centres. The women are organising and are learning from each other. That is a breakthrough, because previously they were isolated in their own compounds.
	This officer is not only performing that international development role, but she is very much a serving member of our armed forces, and just a few days before I arrived, she had come under fire from a Taliban attack. We need these CIMIC officers, because it is too dangerous for non-governmental organisation civilians to do this work, but I agree with the Secretary of State that the long-term aim must be for the NGOs to take over, although that will be a long road.
	It will be a long, hard slog in Afghanistanone that is dangerous for international coalition troopsbut it is necessary. I asked one of the CIMIC reservists whom I met why he kept volunteering to come back to Helmand. He said:
	Politicians talk about a failed state but when you have seen a local hospital where the surgeons have to scrub up at a hand pump in the yard and if someone dies on the operating table the body is thrown out the back door because there is no mortuary, that is what I call a failed state, that's why I'm herefor the people of Afghanistan.
	In Afghanistan at least, the edges around a strict definition of a defence role, an international relations role or an international development role are blurred. I am clear that our defence emphasis in tackling the challenges of globalisation and preventing armed conflict over access to scarce resources, either where they lie or where the instability could make them a target for malign forces seeking to seize them, should be through supporting stability and democracy in those states. Having seen for myself in Afghanistan, I am clear that our armed forces are the best in the world at doing just that.

Kevan Jones: May I start by agreeing with what my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Mr. Joyce) said in his conclusion? The onus is on us all, especially people in this debate, to keep reinforcing, not only to the general public but to some of our colleagues, the debt of honour that we owe our servicemen and women. For the past six years, I have had the privilege of serving on the Defence Committee and have met servicemen and women all over the world, including in this country, who are doing a tremendous job. I think that the average person no longer recognises what such people do. I have no problem with the idea that we should do the utmost for those people, not only when they serve in Her Majesty's armed forces but after they leave.
	The thing that saddens me is the way in which the matter is being used on a party political basis. That was demonstrated tonight in the contribution from the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox)I am sorry that he is no longer in his place. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) said, it is wrong to take one example and then say that because one person has complained, everything is bad. I take exception to some of the things that hon. Gentleman said about Selly Oak, because I have visited it. I shall return to that matter in a minute.
	We are also reaching a point where the media is focusing in on this matter. It should criticise Government when they get things wrong. People in this House know that I criticise the Government when I think that they have got things wrong on the armed forces. One example from last week that stuck with methis was raised earlierwas the fitting tribute at the national memorial arboretum, which I believe was well attended. The right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) was invited to that event, but he chose to go to California to visit Arnold Schwarzenegger. I am sure that had one of our Ministers or any Labour politician done that, they would have been rightly pilloried. Such is the debate and tempo that we are in at the moment.
	The line has clearly come from the Conservative party that it is the only one that understands defence and that Labour does not, and that it is the only one that can deliver for the armed forces. I must give 10 out of 10 to my former Select Committee Chairman, my right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South, who rightly reminded us of the Conservatives' record in office on the armed forces.
	I am sorry that the hon. Member for Woodspring is not present, because he referred to the case of a Private Cooper and implied, wrongly, that that young man had acquired clostridium difficile from dirty hospital wards at Selly Oak. I must put on the record what happened. Had the hon. Gentleman taken the trouble to read last week's edition of  The Mail on Sunday, he would have got the true story, but that would not fit his facts. He tried to implynudge, nudge, wink, winkthat everything is bad. In fact, the surgeon who operated on Private Cooper said:
	He underwent major bowel surgery at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital
	which is part of the Selly Oak complex
	in Birmingham on October 5. During the procedure he had just one dose of antibiotics, in line with best practice for bowel surgery to prevent infection.
	He is being treated for a presumed diagnosis of C. difficile. He has been cared for in a single room since his stay in the hospital and every precaution for preventing infection has been taken.
	It is entirely possible that Jamie had been harbouring the C. difficile organism in his bowel, as many patients do.
	If the hon. Gentleman had explained that, it would have put a different complexion on the slight that he was trying to put on the good staffpeople I have met on two occasions nowat Selly Oak.

Mark Pritchard: I know that the hon. Gentleman always seeks to give a complete picture in speeches to the House. In that regard, does he agree that pre-screening of elective cases before admission to acute hospitals is the way to proceed? If he does agree, perhaps he could have a word with the Secretary of State for Health so that we might see a reduction in all the superbugs, be it the one that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, VRSA or MRSA.

Kevan Jones: That contribution is not worth replying to, because I am dealing with the actual facts and the Conservative Front Bencher was trying to paint a picture that is not actually the case. It is important not to run down and criticise dedicated members of the armed forces and the NHS who are working in difficult circumstances.
	I wish to concentrate on two areas. The first is current operations and the second is the welfare of the armed forces and their families. I have visited Iraq now on five occasions. I voted for the invasion of Iraq and I will defend that decision until the day I die. It was not an easy decision for me, or for many hon. Members who voted for the war. I took that decision on the information that was presented to me at the time and if we all had crystal balls, politics would be an easy profession.
	I have seen a deterioration in the situation in southern Iraq, but progress has been made and pulling back to the airport is the right decision. However, there are some serious questions to be asked about what we do next. Although I accept that the withdrawal and reduction in numbers is welcome, I am not sure how long we can sit at the airport and to what military purpose.
	I suspect that the solution in southern Iraq will not be military: we passed that point quite a long time ago. The solution will be a political one and, as the Prime Minister said the other weekand we should not underestimate this factoran economic one. Some of the regional players need to play a part in that.
	I have visited Afghanistan three times in the past two years, and I agreed totally with my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry) when she said that it will be a hard slog. It is important not to merge the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is convenient to do so, but it is important to keep them separate. Is the situation in Afghanistan challenging? Yes, it is. Have we made mistakes in the past? Yes, we have, and some of them were political. The impression given when we moved to the south was that it would be an easy operation, but that was never the case. Giving that impression may have been a mistake in terms of the debate.
	Progress is being made, and I have seen that on the three occasions that I have visited Kabul. It is also being made in the north, in Mazar-i-Sharif, where reconstruction is taking place. However, if we are signed up to this project for the long term, weand I mean not just the governing partymust recognise that it will be a long process and that there are no quick wins, although there are some wins, as explained admirably by my hon. Friend. I agree with the comments made earlier that we should not look at Afghanistan without taking into account what is happening in Pakistan.
	As my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Hamilton) said, it is important to recognise that Pakistan's Government are taking tough steps to try to bear down on the Taliban. Ultimately, the solutions to some of the problems will not be military. It might be unpalatable, but ultimately, in certain areas, we may have to do dealsnot with hardcore members of the Taliban or al-Qaeda, but with some tribal leaders in southern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. People might disagree with that, but ultimately if we are to defeat hardcore Taliban and al-Qaeda members, that is the approach that needs to be taken in southern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan.
	As I say, I have visited Iraq and Afghanistan in the past few years. If I am asked, Do you hear individual complaints about things? the answer is yes; we always do, as was said earlier, but we have to recognise that the story has moved on. We still read about shortages of body armour and protective vehicles, and we heard comments on those subjects again tonight. However, people who go to Iraq and Afghanistan now will see that the Mastiff vehicle is in theatre, is saving lives and is very popular among members of the Army. Body armour is available in large enough quantities, and it is proving very effective. We should not get stuck in a time warp, as we do in some debates on the subject. Every time that I go to Afghanistan and Iraq, I ask commanding officers and troops about equipment. As my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian said, we hear very few complaints about it. Obviously, we hear complaints about various other things, and we try to take those points on board and feed them back to the Ministry of Defence.
	There are plenty of armchair generals telling us how to win in Afghanistan and Iraq, but the people, and certainly the senior generals, to whom I have spoken never have the idea that the Government have not stepped up to the mark when it comes to providing equipment. The press tries to give the impression that this naughty Labour Government are trying to prevent the equipment that generals are asking for from going to Iraq and Afghanistan, but I have never met a senior general in either of those countries who has told a member of the Defence Committee, The Government are not providing x, y and z. On the urgent operational requirements that we have met, we have purchased some very good equipment with our 2 billion, and with the 1 billion for force protection. That is important to remember.
	It is interesting to see the game that is being played by the Opposition. I have to say that it is what all Oppositions do; we did the same when we were in opposition. The Opposition can call for more money, but they never work out how they would spend it. It was sad that the hon. Member for Woodspring started off on the subject of defence spending by discussing it as a percentage of gross domestic product, but would not say what his figure for defence spending would be. I am like my right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South, who was obviously a bad influence on me when I was first elected: I always argue that more money should be spent on defence. However, I would not give the military a blank cheque that we should just forget about.
	As for some of the criticisms that senior generals such as General Dannatt make of the defence budget and how we spend it, while they say that we are overstretched, they live in palatial accommodation, and have members of the armed forces serving at their dinner tables or working in their garden. General Dannatt flies around the UK in helicopters while arguing that there is a shortage of helicopters in Afghanistan. I know how much it costs me to travel to Durham every day, but when General Dannatt went earlier this year, it cost him over 2,000, because he went by helicopter and private jet. If we are to home in on the constraints of the defence budget, senior generals need to think about how they conduct themselves.

Mark Pritchard: To enlighten us further, will the hon. Gentleman share with the House what he feels is the appropriate level of accommodation for such a senior general? Furthermore, what mode of transport would he have recommended for that tripa tricycle, boat, barge or what?

Kevan Jones: It is quite easy to travel to Durham. There are at least 10 flights a day to Newcastle and a similar number to Teesside airport; God knows how many rail journeys there are to Newcastle and Durham. It is easy to make a flippant point such as the hon. Gentleman's, but is it right that, for example, members of the armed forces still act basically as servants in people's houses? No, it is not. If people are going to criticise this Government for levels of expenditure, they should look at what they are doing themselves. Questions need to be asked about the idea that a general should fly in that way to Durhamto address, as it happens, an organisation run by a private lobbying firm.

Julian Brazier: The hon. Gentleman was making a thoughtful and interesting speech until that point; it is a great shame that he spoilt it by that petty gibe, aimed at somebody who cannot answer back. May I remind the hon. Gentleman that he is sitting on the Benches of the party that has just thrown away another 6 million on a new communications allowance for MPs?

Kevan Jones: We did not, actually; that was voted for by Members of this House, including some on the hon. Gentleman's side. Even those who voted against it will no doubt spend it. I am sorry, but we cannot have such one-way criticism. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I respect him, but all I am saying is that if we are considering the defence budget, we should look at everything in it.
	I turn to welfare for Her Majesty's armed forces and their families. Whenever I visit members of the armed forces, I am always impressed not only by the young men and women themselves, but by the amount of responsibility that they carry on their very young shoulders. Sadly, some of them pay the ultimate price of losing their lives or having terrible injuries.
	We have heard again tonight about the terrible situation at Selly Oak hospital. I should like to put the following on the record, as it is important. An urban myth has built up that somehow the hospital is letting down our armed forces. Given the last two occasions on which I visited, I do not think that anything could be further from the truth. The urban myth drips out of newspaper articles as if it were the truth. In  The Sunday Telegraph last Sunday, Tim Collins wrote a good articlebut sadly, he used the words:
	As a result, the broken and injured servicemen and women are brought back to the UK to face at best indifference, at worst abuse in the mixed wards in the notorious Selly Oak Hospital.
	I am sorry, but it is not notorious. Dedicated men and women from the armed forces and the NHS are working at the hospital. When, as part of the Defence Committee's report into medical services, we visited it recently, we saw some first-rate treatment. When I was there, I put to Julie Moore, chief executive of University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust, some of the headlines that had appeared in the newspapers in the previous six months. On 2 October 2006,  The Daily Telegraph carried the headline, Muslim accosts injured Para in hospital. On 5 March this year, the  Daily Star had this one: Hero squaddie told by British hospital to strip uniform as offensive to Muslims. Finally, on 10 June this year,  The Mail on Sunday ran the headline, Muslim women abuse soldiers at troops' hospital.
	I put those headlines to the chief executive, because it is important to get to the truth. If the stories had been true, I would have been totally appalled by them. However, what Ms Moore said was interesting. In respect of the first headline, there were no Muslim nurses on the ward in question; in response to the article, every soldier there had been interviewed, along with representatives of the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine, but nobody had complained about what had been alleged. The second article was partly true, in that people are told to take off their uniforms if they are going to get into bed. However, anyone who has been to Selly Oak will see uniformed armed forces personnel walking around, so it is simply not the case that they are not wearing uniform. For the last claim, she could find no evidence whatsoever. I put those questions again to the clinical director, Dr. David Rosser, and asked whether he could find any such instances that had really taken place. His answer was no, and neither could the chief executive. We have to deal with fact, not mythology. Before people repeat the kinds of things that they have during this debate, they should go back to the facts in question.

Ann Winterton: Did the chief executive or the clinical director take any action by writing letters to editors of the newspapers concerned in order to refute the articles that had been printed?

Kevan Jones: Yes; I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising that point. When I asked Miss Moore,
	Have the national newspapers contacted you to actually ask you before they print these?,
	she said:
	For those that were printed, no. For one of the stories one of the newspapers did contact us, we told them it was not true and they did not run it. Another newspaper, despite being told so, continued to run it. When we have been asked for comments we have strongly denied them. In relation to some of the stories I wrote letters to the editors and they were quite long and they published a paragraph or two. In most instances we were not asked to comment.
	As long as people who repeat those stories from newspapers deal with fact, I do not mind. If some of them were true, I would be as angry as anybody, but they clearly are not.

Derek Twigg: My hon. Friend will know that I visit Selly Oak regularly and take a great deal of interest in it given my responsibilities. I was there only a few weeks ago and spoke to nearly every injured service person on the ward. To a man, all said what excellent treatment and care they had been given. I also talked to their families. I do not know what the hon. Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) is smiling aboutit is a fact. If he wants to challenge it, let him intervene, by all means. I am disappointed that he is smiling about such an important issue. I got a clear message from the families. I heard tales of nurses sitting up all night comforting injured service persons and of surgeons undertaking mammoth operations and coming in on their days off to ensure that our people get the best possible care and treatment. That is what Selly Oak is about.

Kevan Jones: I entirely agree. We also need to give thanks to the dedicated NHS nurses who sit up with patients and have a real passion for the work that they are doing in caring for these young men. I want to give credit to the surgeons, as well. There has been a great deal of debate about whether we should have separate service hospitals, but the medical care and operations at Selly Oak are not only examples of the best treatment in this country but some of the best in the world. I would like to see a few stories about the pioneering surgery that has been taking place there, but they are obviously not going to appear. I hope that we will be able to cover some of these issues in our report later this year.
	I am concerned about how individuals access the medical system when they leave the armed forces, and some improvements might be needed. In view of the covenant that has been mentioned, we should ensure that people who leave the armed forces are tracked through the medical system. This Government set up the Veterans Agencypublic acknowledgement of the fact that we have veterans. I am pleased about the announcement on the medical assessment centre at St. Thomas's to treat veterans with possible mental health problems that go back to 1992. I hope that that work not only assists the research that is required into such problems, but helps the effort to support in the community some of those who sadly have to deal with manifest mental illness for quite a long time after they leave the armed forces.
	As for the ability of service personnel to raise problems that they may face in the armed forces, I think that all three services need a voicethat is why I proposed my private Member's Bill in the support of the British Armed Forces Federation earlier this year. That independent voice is very important. I respect the work of various service charities, but I have to say with respect to the Royal British Legion campaign that although I agree with some of it, it seems to be venturing into areas of politics where it should not go. It could be dangerous if it goes any further down that road. As part of its public campaign, it should at some stage recognise what the Government have done.
	Finally, I want to speak about the debt of honour and recognition of servicemen who are killed or wounded in conflict. We seem to have a bit of a strange viewthough I understand it up to a pointthat we should not give medals to people unless for bravery or some special tier of duty. I believe that there is now a good case for granting some type of honour for those who are severely wounded or killed in action; such recognition is so important for the families. I thus congratulate the  Daily Mirror on its honour the brave campaign. I hope that the MOD can overcome the natural conservatism of our armed forces and try to ensure that, as in other nations such as Canada and the US, we bestow some sort of honour in recognition of those whose ultimate act is to give their lives for the freedoms that we take for granted. It is important to acknowledge their role in some way.

Mark Pritchard: I apologise for not being present for the whole time, but I am grateful to be called to contribute to what has been a good debate.
	I agree with the hon. Member for Portsmouth, North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry) that Britain is a force for good in the world. We should hear that much more and I believe that we have seen a consensus tonight that liberty, freedom, democracy, human rights and equal rights are universal aspirations that peoples all over the world wish to enjoy. We are often called on as a nationas are our brave servicemen and womento enforce British foreign policy or international law, but we can do so only with the right level of armed forces. My hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) was absolutely right to say that the current level of UK commitment needs to be backed up with appropriate levels of personnel and equipment. I believe that a strong defence means a strong peace. We often talk about peacekeeping operations as well as aggressive operations and the same rules apply in respect of having the right level of capability.
	I will touch only briefly on Afghanistan and Iraq later, as they have been ably covered in great detail this evening. I would like to deal with a few areas that have not been elaborated on so far. First, given that this is a broad defence policy debate, I would like to discuss the ballistic missile defence shield. The fact is that in July and November last year I asked two questions about it [Interruption.]and I am pleased to see that the Secretary of State is in his place to hear my thoughts on the matter.
	It is time that we had a proper debate on Britain's role in the ballistic missile defence shield. Some people say that the current technology does not work. Well, that is what they said about the tank when it was first rolled out and we know that it has developed somewhat since 1915. I believe that the technology is getting there. There is no doubt that the proliferation of nuclear weapons and the increased number of countries with access to intercontinental ballistic missiles means that Britain is more vulnerable now than ever before, as other Members have suggested. It certainly will be in the next few years if Members do not accept my premise on that point. That being the case, we need to be clear that our first duty as MPs is to ensure that we defend our nation. We must therefore ensure that we are part of the American ballistic missile defence shield.
	Of course, a very expensive price tag is attached, which is why I suggest that the quid pro quo for the Americans having their eyes and ears at Fylingdales and one or two other places in this nation is that the Pentagon picks up the bill for the ballistic missile defence shield, so that it is not a spending commitment but a commitment, as I am sure the Secretary of State would agree, to ensuring that this nation and our constituents are protected in future.
	Japan is making its own way. It has the Americans using Aegis destroyers off its coast, with ship-based missiles that can track and intercept incoming missiles to Japan. There are also other platforms, such as airborne ones with specially adapted 747s, and land-based systems that might be placed in Poland and the Czech Republic. It is right that we should have a debate on whether we should have land-based or other forms of platform that can track and intercept intercontinental ballistic missiles that might come our way in the future.
	Of course, some people say that, if we do that, we will put the United Kingdom at risk. In fact, we are already at risk if we supply the eyes and ears to the Americans, through Fylingdales and other bases. If there were a simultaneous attack on the UK and America, the UK would be in a farcical position. Someone from Permanent Joint Headquarters or the equivalent could phone the Pentagon and say, There are missiles coming on your eastern seaboard, and the Americans could interdict those missiles, but we could do absolutely nothing about the missiles coming to the UK. It is a mistake of any Governmentindeed, any Parliamentto say that that threat will never be realised and that that risk is minimum. We must be prepared for the unexpected; so I hope that the Secretary of State will take this opportunity to say that there will be a full debate about the future of the ballistic missile defence shield and the UK's role in it.
	That brings me to the Trident replacement. I remember the former Foreign Secretary controversially opening the debate on that and the Secretary of State closing it. In that debate, I welcomed the Trident replacement, but I also mentioned new technologies. The hon. Member for Portsmouth, North talked about the flexibility of weaponry, and again she was absolutely right. The trouble with nuclear weapons is that there is very little flexibility. Yes, we must have a deterrent; yes, the deterrent has worked; but I humbly submit that we need something more than conventional weapons and something less than nuclear ones.
	Of course, if we use nuclear weapons, there is nuclear fallout, huge international political fallout and moral fallout. They are the weapons of last resort. We need a new weapon that gives us more flexibility to send a very powerful message to our would-be enemies if we need to do so that is greater than that associated with conventional weaponry. So what is that new technology? It is hypersonic technology, and the Secretary of State knows a lot about it.
	Hypersonic mass technology will give us such flexibility, because it allows the UK to tell a rogue state or an enemy that, by ratcheting up or ratcheting down, we can take out a military town, a military city or even a military hamlet. Of course, conventional weapons are limited in their capability. If we wanted to focus on a military town to send a message to a rogue state that was threatening us with intercontinental ballistic missiles, perhaps nuclear tipped, we would perhaps not want to consider the nuclear option. So we need a middle way, and it might be hypersonic mass technology.

Kevan Jones: I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman's speech, but I am also looking at the expression on his Whip's face, and he is rather perplexed by what is being proposed. Will the hon. Gentleman explain how that technology would be paid for and what it would cost?

Mark Pritchard: It is a question of opportunity cost; what is the cost of not responding to our enemies? The greater cost would be to make the error of judgment of using a nuclear weapon, which would carry a greater political, moral and even financial cost. It would contaminate a whole country or region. The consequences of using nuclear weapons are perhaps more severe than the consequences of using the technology to which I am referring.
	If the hon. Gentleman has other ideas, I would be happy for him to submit them to me at some point and to discuss them with him. I know that he is a distinguished member of the Select Committee on Defence, but tonight he has been unusually a little bit prickly for some reason, even though he is mostly amiable. It is a bit untoward of him, at best, to attack my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), given that it is absolutely right that Her Majesty's Opposition should ask difficult questions. When we do not ask questions, his party says that there is no opposition; when we do, it says that we are being party political.

Kevan Jones: I have no problem with the Opposition, or anyone in my party, asking the Government difficult questions. The Secretary of State knows that I do it all the time. What I greatly object to is the hon. Member for Woodspring telling the House things that are not correct.

Mark Pritchard: Shall we go back to the Iraq war and the dodgy dossier? We have not got time. I take the hon. Gentleman's point, but we do not need any lectures from his party on the truth and our armed forces.
	I would like to move on to commenting on new technologies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Unmanned aerial vehicles are very important in the field today, and I hope that the Secretary of State will be able to furnish the House soon with details of Raven and other UAV projects currently under way. The Government should also be putting far more pressure on the Americans to provide an interim solutionthe Predator armed UAV. It can give more flexibility in Afghanistan and Iraq. I know that the Predator supply line is being used up by American orders, but more pressure could be brought to bear in that regard.
	On Iraq, Afghanistan and counter-indirect fire measures, I had the privilege of going to Iraq some months ago, and while I was there we were mortared in the camp. I was there for only a week, and being mortared for a week is nothing in comparison to experiencing mortar fire on the base every single day for a long period on a tour of duty. I pay tribute to all my constituentsand all serving personnelwho every single night in Afghanistan, or at a single base in Basra air station, have to endure mortar fire. I pay tribute, albeit belatedly, to the fact that the Secretary of State and his colleagues have taken urgent action during the past few weeks and months to deal with the counter-IDF issue. More needs to be done on that, and I look forward to hearing some details.
	In his opening speech, the Secretary of State mentioned terrorism. There is a great mystery in this House tonight, and it is this: I understand that DNA samples have been taken from parts of improvised explosive devices and bomb fragments that have allegedly been linked to known profiles on the British DNA database. If that is not true, will the Secretary of State please rule it out and clear it up once and for all? If it is true, it is in the national interest that we know the identity of the individuals who are known to the UK authorities, whether they have been apprehended, when they will come before the courts, and what the chances are of convicting them. There seems to be a cloud of secrecy. I understand operational security reasons, but sometimes operational security and national security are used as excuses not to give all of the facts. The Government need to make a judgment on that, but it is a legitimate point to raise. Have British citizens, who are known to be on the DNA database, been active in Iraq and Afghanistan? If so, what has happened to them?
	There has been some discussion about NATO, and it is right to expect more from our NATO allies. However, it is also right to recognise those NATO allies that have made contributions. I am conscious that the Albanian Prime Minister has been in the House today. I pay tribute to Albania and Ukraine for their contribution, and especially to the brave servicemen and women of Denmark and Holland. They have made a genuine contribution, but we clearly need a larger one, from not only those nations but others. I therefore hope that President Sarkozy is serious about NATO, although I also hope that his proposal is not a Trojan horse for a new Franco-German pact in years to come. However, we would genuinely welcome France becoming part of NATO again and contributing. I also hope that it will avoid the national caveats that have perhaps bedevilled the contributions of Germany and one or two other nations.
	I pay tribute to Commonwealth servicemen and women, whose contribution to Iraq and Afghanistan is most valuable. I thank Government Front Benchers for recently giving free blueysfree mailto Caribbean and other Commonwealth personnel. That welcome change was made in the past few months. It is right that they, as well as our UK forces personnel, should have that.
	Defence procurement has been mentioned in detail. I hope that lessons will be learned from the fact that it often means that some projects are delivered late and over budget. That obviously has a knock-on effect on the overall defence budget and the deployability of new kit in the field. I hope that Shropshire and the excellent engineers there will not be overlooked in the future rapid effect system programme.
	The debate has been wide ranging. I understand that some changes have been made involving defence attachs, and I know that some squabbling has occurred between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Ministry of Defence about who pays for defence attachs in future. Even in the past few weeks, changes have been made, leading to the withdrawal of defence attachs from several UK embassies and missions in Europe and probably elsewhere. There are to be regional defence attachs so that, for example, someone based in Rome would cover several countries. I should be interested to hear the logic behind that, given that I imagine that defence jobs and the industry are vital to all our constituencies. It is important to have our defence attachs on the spot to ensure that the United Kingdom is considered for any procurement from foreign countries.
	In addition, Front Benchers know that defence attachs often help in reforming the armed forces in different parts of the worldthat is often the prerequisite for NATO entry. If our defence attachs are not on the spot, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Americans will have theirs there, and that certainly applies to the Germans and the French. If a procurement project is to go somewhere in Europe, the people with defence attachs are more likely to be heard than the UK, which has been short-sighted and withdrawn its attachs.
	In the last couple of minutes, I would like to consider Shropshire. I am sure that the Secretary of State did not think that I would rise to my feet without making one or two points about my constituency. I pay tribute to people in the Royal Air Force, the Army and the Royal Navy and Territorial reserve personnel who come from my constituency and the county of Shropshire and have contributed to the effort not only in Iraq and Afghanistan but the Falkland Islands, Cyprusalbeit a downsizingKosovo and other parts of the world, including Africa. It is important that we remember our personnel around the world, not just in Iraq and Afghanistan.
	All the Ministers present will know that the west midlands has traditionally been an excellent recruiting ground for Her Majesty's armed forces, going back to the King's Shropshire light infantry. I hope that there will be some reciprocation of that commitment from the Government in relation to RAF Cosford. Over the past few weeks, the Under-Secretary has kindly responded to a written question, saying that no decision has been made on the future of RAF Cosford, yet the Minister for the Armed Forces suggested in a letter to me that a decision on Cosford had been made, but that the final approval would not be made until spring 2009. That leaves my constituents in limbo, so I hope that the Minister will give some clarity on the decision.
	There are two options before us on RAF Cosford. There is no shame in Ministers saying, We got it wrong, or, We want to do a U-turn, because that happens often. I hope that Ministers will say, We got it wrong in the defence training review. The infrastructure in Wales is not in place. There is squabbling, which we didn't really foresee, between the Ministry of Defence, the Welsh Assembly and other agencies. Therefore, we want to give the defence training contract to Cosford, and we will expand the RAF and tri-service personnel there. That would be the preferred option for my constituents.
	The second option, of course, is to attract the logistics battalion and the signals battalion returning from Germany under the Borona operation. Some colleagues have spoken of their concerns about very large garrisons, but there is a distinction between super-garrisons and mega-garrisons. Should option No. 1 not be taken up, I would be content for Cosford to be made into an Army super-garrison. However, it is important that there should be clarity and that a decision should be made soon, in order that my constituents, schools, businesses, suppliers and the personnel working at the base can plan for their futures.
	Time is short, so I shall conclude by saying that I welcome a softening of the Government's position on the Defence Logistics Organisation at Sapphire House. I hope that they are rethinking relocating 400 to 500 staff to Bristol, because many of those people are unable or unwilling to move. It is right that the Defence Logistics Organisation should remain at Sapphire House in Shropshire, because that makes sense, and fits in with the other Defence Logistics Organisation staff at MOD Donnington in my constituency and with the Defence Storage and Distribution Agency. The Government made an excellent and brave decision, following the Defence Committee's inquiry into Afghanistan, in saying that the Army Base Repair Organisation would not lose 880 jobs. Since then that decision has proved right, because ABRO is recruiting people for another 150 jobs, as a result of attrition on vehicles in Afghanistan and Iraq.
	Shropshire has a proud heritage and history in serving Her Majesty's armed forces. I hope that the Government will pay back the county, by giving a secure future to Cosford, to the DLO and to ABRO and DSDA.

Andrew Murrison: It is always a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard). I enjoyed his general strategic overview, as well as his specific points about the DNA and defence attachs. I hope that the Minister will have answers to those questions at his fingertips when he replies. I declare an interest as a medical officer in the Royal Naval Reserve, and I am in receipt of a naval pension. We have heard 14 Back-Bench speeches today, all of which had merit, even if in some cases one had to dig a little deep to find it.
	Ministers can surely be in no doubt that the military covenant has been broken. I appreciate the caveat that the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Hamilton) entered with regard to Scotland, but the Royal British Legion has felt it necessary to mount its Honour the covenant campaign this autumn, while a completely new organisation, the British Armed Forces Federation, was created this summer to lobby for a better deal for the service community. Unofficial forces websites have sprung up. I draw the Minister's attention particularly to the Army Rumour Service websitebetter known, if you will forgive me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, by its acronym ARRSEwhich provides a free and frank window on the views of an increasingly dischuffed service population.
	In 25 years of service in the armed forces, I can never remember anything quite like this. It is important to acknowledge, however, that there have been times in our history when our troops have not been given the respect to which they are surely entitled. Rudyard Kipling described the plight of Tommy Atkins. Although Kipling's Tommy emerged in the 1890s, he is chiefly associated with our engagement in total war in two obvious fights for national survival. His descendants are involved in conflicts that are much more discretionary, and that do not command the support of the British public in anything like the same way.
	In my view, that means that the Government owe more than ever to today's men and women who are putting their lives on the line in pursuit of their foreign policy. That is all the more reason for disappointment at the attitude adopted by Ministers, captured perfectly by Mrs. Diane Dernie, mother of Lance Bombardier Ben Parkinson, who said of injured servicemen:
	They are simply figures on a balance sheet. They do not have any role, any function and the MOD wants to dispose of them as cheaply as possible.
	Meanwhile, Ben, even after Ministers have been shamed by public outcry into doubling his payment, faces a bleak future. No doubt the Minister will crow about guaranteed income payments, but on close examination those appear frugal, and for junior soldiers unrepresentative of potential future earnings. I am sorry if I detected a scoff from the Under-Secretary of State for Defencehe criticised me earlier in a rather crude intervention, if I may say sobut that is certainly the view of the service community. If he doubts that, I suggest that he look at the website to which I referred.
	It is difficult to see Labour's armed forces compensation scheme as anything other than a second-rate deal, which is inferior in important respects to elements of the preceding war pension scheme, imperfect though that undoubtedly was, and which uniquely attempts to swim against the tide of society's prevailing compensation culture. The formulaic way in which compensation is pegged ignores the fact that a broken body is so much more than the sum of constituent injuries. It addresses quality of life forgone in the most bludgeonly way imaginable and is untenable.
	The Royal British Legion is correct to point out, as we have, that the vast majority of personnel will simply not benefit from the changes announced on the hoof last week, and that the changes will not benefit those with a single devastating injury of the sort sustained by Lance Corporal Martin Edwards. As the Minister's announcement was, admittedly, by way of launching a consultation, I hope that he will listen to those with the best interests of servicemen at heart before finalising his plans; I say that in all sincerity. So far, those plans have been chaotic. We understood initially that an increase in retrospective payments was highly unlikely. If that were so, people injured in Operation Telic I to IV would have found themselves at a financial disadvantage compared with people hurt post-April 2005. Clearly, that would be a nonsense, and we understand that the MOD has been obliged to change tack.
	The United States is often held out as the exemplar in delivering the military covenant. I simply do not know why America lauds servicemen in a way that we do not. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) touched on some of the possible reasons. I am realistic enough to appreciate that the attitudinal differences between our two countries mean that our servicemen will not be patriotically ushered to the front of queues or showered with cinema tickets. But the strand of care for those who have given extraordinary service, embodied in the GI Bill and the Veterans Administration, and extended this year in the inauguration of the President's Commission on Care for America's Returning Wounded Warriors, is indicative of our best friend's far more generous interpretation of the military covenant. I hope that the Minister will say what lessons he has learned from the US and how he intends to implement best practice here.
	Our armed forces are a mirror of the society from which they are drawn, yet increasingly their deal looks second-rate. What are they to make of compensation for the most severe battlefield injuries, reluctantly increased by Ministers to 285,000, against nearly 500,000 for an RAF typist with repetitive strain injury of the thumb?

Derek Twigg: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Andrew Murrison: No, I will not. I do not have enough time.
	How do Ministers think soldiers feel when they see civil servants receiving an extra 100,000 a year to serve in dangerous places, and all they can aspire to is a bit of extra pay in lieu of tax that they have paid?

Des Browne: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Andrew Murrison: I will give way to the Secretary of State.

Des Browne: I suspect that the hon. Gentleman has not been listening to the debate. The issue of the false comparison, which he has parroted again, has already been dealt with. It is clear from the way in which he is winding up the debate that he is reading a speech that he prepared long before the debate, rather than responding to the debate. It would have been helpful if he had paid attention to the issue when it was addressed earlier and the false comparison was explained.

Andrew Murrison: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his intervention, but it does not move us much further forward. I seriously suggest that he listen to the British Armed Forces Federation and the Royal British Legion, and look at their websites. He should listen to them, not to me.
	I have to say that I am not surprised that the Royal British Legion thinks ill of an Administration whose armed forces compensation scheme is designed to shift the burden of proof in the MOD's favour, to narrow eligibility criteria and to impose onerous time restrictions on claimants. That is precisely what the scheme has done. I know Ministers mean wellI do not doubt thatbut these are hardly the actions of Ministers who are falling over themselves to fulfil their side of the military covenant. In one of the most thoughtful contributions of the day, my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) called defence the Cinderella of public services, and I fear that he is correct.
	A number of Members mentioned housing. When I was a practising doctor I had a fair amount to do with military public health, but I never thought that as a Member of Parliament I would visit barracks that were infested with cockroaches. One young man said to me, I do not have to put up with cockroaches when I am at my mum's house, so I do not see why I should have to do so when I am living in barracks. What messages do conditions like that send to the men and women whom Ministers say they value so highly?

Kevan Jones: Where is the barracks?

Andrew Murrison: It is Battlesbury barracks in Warminster. The hon. Gentleman may wish to pay it a visit.
	Half the MOD's bed spaces are classed as poor, and the National Audit Office reckons that it will take years to put the position right. These are hardly homes fit for heroes. Yet, as the NAO has revealed, 13.5 million in planned maintenance and repairs scheduled for 2006-07 had to be deferred because of budgetary complaintsa point that appears to have been lost on the right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig). Students in college halls of residence and their parents would be appalled at the conditions that barracks dwellers must routinely endure, but barracks, unlike halls of residence, are closed institutions. What the public do not see, Ministers apparently do not worry about.
	Given the job of work that our troops do, I have to ask whether we have our priorities right. It is surely right for our military to be able to rely on married quarters of at least the standard that they might expect if their landlord were a housing association or a local authority.

Derek Twigg: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Andrew Murrison: No, I will not.
	On resettlement, personnel seeking social housing must not be disadvantaged by their peripatetic careers, as they are currently. I believe that that point was made by the hon. Member for Midlothian.
	The hon. Member for Falkirk (Mr. Joyce) described at first hand his experience of married quarters. My experience was slightly different: we at least had indoor sanitation.
	My experience of health care at the point of wounding in theatre at roles 1 and 2 has been fairly positive. It is important for our troops to know that they will be well looked after, but we should not seek to cover up the concerns of highly experienced and respected professionals such as Lieutenant-Colonel Paul Parker of the Royal Army Medical Corps, a consultant orthopaedic surgeon who has presented us with a picture of military medicine in Afghanistan that is not rosy. His view is that medical evacuation, basic supplies in military hospitals and medical imaging in theatre are inadequate. I hope Ministers agree that the way in which they provide for our injured lies at the very heart of our military covenant.
	Over the weekend, the Army's top brass were accused of failing to stand up for their people. Lieutenant-Colonel Parker has certainly stood up for those in his care, and as a doctor and as an officer he deserves great credit. His report cuts through the hierarchy that surrounds Ministers and demands their critical appraisal. I hope that Ministers have satisfied themselves that any shortcomings identified by him have now been remedied, and that in so doing they have not been content simply to accept any old flannel from the general staff.
	In the last month alone 145 injured soldiers have been repatriated for treatment, yet we learn that because our UK military hospitals have now closed, soldiers are being nursed not with their comrades but alongside civilians. My hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury mentioned that point. The Minister must say whether that is because they have complex medical needs that demand tertiary and higher specialist medical carewhich is fineor because the new medical managed arrangements supported in all parts of the House are inadequate.
	My chief concern, however, is not about care in theatreor role 3 back home at Selly Oak or in the wider NHS. My chief concern is not about health care at all; instead, it is about care, by which I mean what happens when a person is done with Selly Oak and begins to face the future with a broken body or broken mind. The announcement by Ministers of more cash for combat stress was welcome, but the fact that it was such a sudden and substantial injection more than four years after the start of Operation Telic calls into question the foresight of an MOD that has meanwhile been happy to preside over the serious erosion of uniformed military psychiatry.
	The right hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) talked in his discussion of finance about Labour being on the brink of fantasyto borrow his wordsin the 1980s. He also looked forward to aircraft carriers and FRESthe future rapid effect systemas did the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Hendrick). I shall say more about that if I have time. My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) discussed defence equipment in her inimitable, robust and highly thoughtful fashion. The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie) also touched briefly on defence procurement. The right hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang) talked about Afghanistan and its flourishing poppy crop, as did the hon. Member for Portsmouth, North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry)if I may say so without embarrassing her, in what was a most thoughtful contribution.
	Despite the debt it owes to our reserve forces, it appears that the Labour party continues to conflate the Territorial Army with the Home Guard. If anyone doubts that, they should take a look at the Home Secretary's unworthy line at the expense of the TA while playing to the gallery in Bournemouth last month. I have written to the right hon. Lady and invited her to come to the House and explain herself and apologise. I regret to have to say that, to date, she has been silent on that. Words mean what words say, and we as politicians should understand that full well. At a time when this Government's foreign policy is so heavily reliant on the TA, it behoves Ministers to choose their words carefully.
	The Defence Analytical Services Agency tells us that our volunteer reserves stand at 36,000, down from 46,000 in April 2000, yet in Iraq and Afghanistan they have been employed as never before. Given their battle-proven capabilities, it seems to me that the only reason for cutting the TA is a failure to demonstrate cost-effectiveness. Therefore, during the summer I asked how much the TA costs. We learned on Tuesday how difficult it is to pin Ministers down on defence costs, but in this instance it appears that they simply do not have a clue. The Minister stated to me in a letter dated 1 September:
	I can understand how you might feel surprised at our inability to provide information on the total cost of the Territorial Army.
	He is utterly right that I am surprised, because he is saying that his axemen have been hacking away at the TA without having any idea about savings that might be achieved, or whether consequential costs would need to be borne elsewhere. How can we possibly secure maximum advantage for the cash available if we have no handle on relative costings?
	Given that the Minister of State has no idea about the cost drivers within his own Department, it is hardly surprising that he cannot give timelines for procurementas was painfully obviously apparent in his contribution last Tuesday. Without timelines, all the commitments made last week and in the July statement are no more than aspirations. That, along with the failure of defence spendingat 1.5 per cent.to keep pace with defence-related inflation and no commensurate fall in operational tempo, means that, as the Royal United Service Institute pointed out last week, an overly optimistic comprehensive spending review is likely to be followed by defence strategic guidance for the next 10 years that will disappoint those of us eagerly anticipating carriers, FRES and attack aircraft. That is all the more reason for a proper strategic defence review. I am pleased to note that the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) appears to agree with us on thatmuch as it pains me to have much in common with the Liberal Democrats. It seems to me that not only are the Government looking to my party to set the agenda, but the Liberal Democrats are at it as well.

Bob Ainsworth: This has been a wide-ranging debate. I have always been aware of the level of expertise in the House on these issues, and I want to thank everybody for their contributions. It will not be possible for me to respond to every issue that was raised, but I will try to deal with as many as I can.
	My right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) treated us to a little bit of the history lesson that we have to listen every now and then in order to put into context some of the allegations that are made today. He did that very well. My right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) talked about the debt that we owe to our servicemen and their families, and he was particularly concerned about accommodation. He recogniseseven if some Opposition Members do notthat a huge building programme is going on, and that some of the legacy issues of our single-living and family accommodation are now being dealt with. That cannot be done overnight; the neglect went on for generations. There are Members in this House who know that, yet they choose to try to deny it. However, I agree with my right hon. Friend that there are some big issues that we need to address, particularly in relation to family living accommodation and the right to buy. We are as concerned about and interested in those matters as he was when he did his job at the Ministry of Defence.
	I am sorry that I was not in the House for most of the speech of the hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton), who talked mainly about procurement. I was a little surprised by her intimation that she is concerned that the Royal Navy is going to be dominated by the carriers. Yes, the carriers are going to be somewhat dominating features of the Royal Navy. If we want our Navy to have worldwide reach and the ability to project force around the world wherever we want itbe it air power or assault capabilitythe carriers and the protection force are the single most important way in which we will do that. That is why the carriers are so important.
	The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) talked about the covenant and said that we have a debt to our armed forces that needs to be met. I do not disagree with him, and he knows that nobody in the ministerial team does. This is not just an issue for the Government. We need to recognise that we are paying back our armed forces for the tremendous sacrifice that they make for, and the capability that they give to, our nation. The nation also needs to recognise that. This is not an easy issue to address, and there are no quick remedies. It is not just a matter of parades, for example; we have to work on this. As the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) and others in the House have said, we all have a responsibility to address this issue, to take it out to the public at large, and to ensure that we all do our bestirrespective of where we sit in this Houseto connect the work being done on behalf of the nation by the armed forces with the general public, whose understanding is perhaps not all that it once was. With effort, perhaps we can make that connection again. The hon. Member for Canterbury also talked passionately about the Territorial Army, about which I know he has great concerns. I intend to sit down with him and talk through some of those issues as soon as I can.
	In a wide-ranging discussion, my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Hamilton) talked about a lot of issues. He, too, was concerned about housing, and particularly about the priority given to our armed forces by local authorities throughout the country. He asked whether we were prepared to meet him and a delegation of Members of Parliamentand we of course are. I do not suppose that he is concerned about whether it is most appropriate for me or for another member of the ministerial team to meet that delegation. One or other of us will be more than happy to make ourselves available for a meeting.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Hendrick) talked about our relationship with the USA. However, he was also concerned to ensure that we should develop our co-operative capability with our European neighbours, and stressed the importance of that for the future. I agree with him in that regard.
	The fact that the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie) has certain problems was exposed in some of the interventions made during his contribution. If he thinks that he can cherry-pick the defence estate and imprint in Scotland, he will have to do some explainingbeyond this debate in the Houseto the many people up there who depend on that work for their livelihood.
	The hon. Gentleman talked about cap badges and the history of the Scottish regiments. Of course we must honour our history, but we all know that we cannot live in it. Time moves on, and we must address the issues that face us today. There is a need for change, and although we must try to retain the golden thread that runs through our regimental history, we must also deal with the problems confronting our military in today's world.
	The hon. Member for North Devon talked about the situation in Iraq, and asked me to explain the statement that I made in evidence to the Defence Committee in July. He compared that with the recent statement from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, but I do not think that any explanation is necessary. I am not a military expert, and do not pretend to be. I would not come to the House and say otherwise, but the statement that I made to the Defence Committee was based on military advice given to me at the time.
	My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister does not pretend to have military expertise either, but the military advice that we are given, and the situation that we face, have both changed. We are now able to consider the possibility of reducing our force level in Iraq, and to plan for it. Our forces will be backed up by other forces in the region, but the level that we will maintain will be lower than that which our military advice was prepared to contemplate in July.
	The hon. Member for North Devon also talked extensively about the situation in Afghanistan, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang), my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry) and other hon. Members. It is a matter that we must look at very seriously. Sometimes, the feeling is that our military personnel take a narrow view of the matters that they are dealing with, but my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North made it very clear that that was not true of the discussions that she had had out in theatre.
	The House should be aware that no one is more able to take a broad view of what people in the military are able to contribute than those people themselves. They know what they can do, and they also know what must come in behind them to ensure the nation building that has to happen if we are to render Afghanistan viable in the future. That is one of the tasks that face us, and our military people understand that as well as we do. In no way do the Afghan people want the Taliban back, but we must make sure that the growing capacity of the Afghan state is seen to be a force for good, a positive force that improves the lives of the people. A lot remains to be done, and it can be done only if we adopt a comprehensive approach.
	Equally, as various hon. Members noted, we must also ensure that our own people understand what we are doing in Afghanistan. The connection is not always made between what our armed forces are doing out there and the effect on the security of people and families here at home. All of us, regardless of which party we represent, have a responsibility to make sure that people appreciate that link. We must make people understand that what is happening in Afghanistan cannot be disconnected from security at home.
	Big issues are involved in that, and they must be fully explained and understood. However, there is a convergence between heroin, organised crime and international terrorism; it is a thread that runs all the way from Afghanistan to the streets of Coventry, and the streets of every town and city in our country. The elements cannot be disconnected.
	I have to tell the hon. Member for North Devon that it is not true that there are no dedicated helicopters for medical evacuation in Afghanistan. Dedicated helicopters are available in the field, as I saw when I visited Bastion, so if the hon. Gentleman has been given contrary information, it is untrue.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Mr. Joyce) gave us much information, as well as a vivid personal insight into forces living accommodation over the generations. He gave the lie to the idea that the problems can be solved overnight. There has been ingrained, systematic under-investment over a period of time. We have made structural changes to ensure that will no longer happen, but the problems cannot be fixed overnight.
	My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) reacted as I did to the speech of the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox). Of all the speeches I heard during the debate, the two from the Conservative Front Bench were the most extraordinary. The hon. Member for Woodspring showed that he was capable of applying himself to give us analysis and a constructive view when he talked about Iran. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was sitting on the Treasury Bench at the time, and neither he nor I could disagree with what the hon. Gentleman said. However, almost all the rest of the speech that he treated us to was a catalogue of misrepresentation and abuse of the facts.
	That does not matter so much when what is said is about the Government. The hon. Gentleman deliberately and repeatedly tries to present the case that there are cuts in the defence budget. He tells people that in television and radio studios, and he told us the same thing today. He denies the fact that by the end of the current spending round, real-terms spending will be 3 billion, or 10 per cent., higher than in 1997. As some of my hon. Friends pointed out, our record is in marked contrast to that of the Government the hon. Gentleman supported, who introduced defence cuts year on year during the back end of their period in office.
	What the hon. Gentleman says in that vein is part of the cut and thrust of politics. People do not always use facts when they are throwing politics around in this place; we misrepresent the facts and make accusations against people from time to time. However, the hon. Gentleman went on to attack civilian volunteers in theatre and, more importantly, said things about the medical facilities at Selly Oak. I think that he needs to reflect on what he said, and the allegations that he made today.
	I visited Selly Oak on Monday. I talked to parents, patients, nurses, doctors and the military personnel who run that facility. I can tell the House that they are sick and tired of being used as a political football. They are angry about that. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Woodspring cannot be in the Chamber now, because I would be saying exactly the same thing to him if he was. Today he made allegations about a particular case. I will not go further. I say only this: the hon. Gentleman should read what the surgeon who dealt with the individual had to say, and he should look at the press release issued by the hospital tonight. Given that he has an expertise in this areaI am not going to attempt to second-guess medical capabilityhe should reflect on what he said and how he said it, and the allegations that he made.

Andrew Murrison: rose

Bob Ainsworth: If the hon. Gentleman is prepared to defend the hon. Member for Woodspring, I shall give wayand I hope that he can do so.

Andrew Murrison: The Minister has accused the Conservatives of using the armed forces as a political football. That is a disgraceful allegation. What does he make of his own Prime Minister's recent effortsgrandstanding in Iraq?

Bob Ainsworth: Let us stick to the issue that has been raised tonight. Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I have tried, in my inadequate way, to respond to the debate. I am talking about things that were said in this Chamber about the worrying state of the medical facilities supplied to our injured personnel in the Selly Oak hospitalthat was the allegation that was made. That is not something that is thrown at Ministers; it is thrown at the caring staff, be they doctors, nurses or anyone else. If the hon. Gentleman wants to defend that, let him do sobut it is deplorable, and he and the hon. Member for Woodspring, both of whom have expertise in this area, ought to think about the allegations that they have made. It is up to them. I am not going to take this any further than that, because I do not have the expertise to do so. In those facilities, dedicated people spend day and night trying to provide care and attention for our injured armed forces personnel, and they resent the allegations made in the media, and those being stoked up by people in this House, too.
	The hon. Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) threw around the same allegations about medical services and talked about the compensation issue in deliberately emotive terms. I do not know whether he was listening when the Secretary of State spoke, but he was present. We are not talking about a compensation package that is an actuarial calculation to cover the loss and injury to be suffered by an individual for the rest of their lives. That is the first point to make. As my right hon. Friend said, like for likeapples for applesis not being compared.
	The other point that the hon. Gentleman and everyone else needs to recognise is that until recently there was no compensation package at all. This is a supplement to the lifelong payment that exists, and existed before the introduction of the up-front payment. It recognises the huge problems that injured personnel have when they are trying to rebuild their lives. It is not a substitute for their ongoing pension entitlement, and it is despicable for the Conservatives to try to suggest that it is.
	Tonight's debate has shown us that there is a degree of expertise in the House that keeps the MOD and its policies under scrutiny, with the help of the Select Committee and the other instruments that we have in Parliament to do that. Our policies and priorities are clear. In the first analysis, they are to support our people and our current operations. Thereafter, they are to look to the future to ensure that we are planning adequately and properly for all the various risks that our nation may face. Those are the priorities that we ought to have. We must do our best to see to it that we meet them.

Bob Blizzard: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
	 Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

DELEGATED LEGISLATION

Ordered,
	That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Dioceses, Pastoral and Mission Measure (HC 998), laid before the House on 26th July be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee. [Mr. Blizzard.]

CHILD PROTECTION (SEX OFFENDERS)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. [Mr. Blizzard.]

Jimmy Hood: I welcome the opportunity of this Adjournment debate this evening. My right hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (John Reid), when he was Home Secretary, announced on 13 June new powers to protect children from known sex offenders. Following that announcement, I said in a press release in my constituency that there are few crimes more horrific than sexual offences against children. We need to ensure that the most vulnerable group in our society is safe, and I am glad that that is at the heart of Government policy.
	The tragic murder of Sarah Payne by Roy Whiting in 2001 sparked a debate about monitoring paedophiles in the community. It was evident that the Sexual Offences Act 1997 did not go far enough, as Whiting was one of the first offenders added to that list and he murdered Sarah Payne. A similar concern regarding the shortcomings of laws on sexual offences against children was voiced in Scotland in response to the murder of eight-year-old Mark Cummings by convicted sex offender Stuart Leggate in 2004. Once again, it is believed that the loss of an innocent child's life could have been prevented had the proposed new laws been in operation.
	The UK has some of the strongest restrictions on child sex offenders, but as my right hon. Friend acknowledged in his statement on 13 June, we need to do more. I hope that the Minister can tell me tonight that the new measures, which will strengthen child protection even further, are a progressive beginning of a more engaged and transparent public policy for the protection of children from known sex abusers.
	For too long, politicians have shied away from kicking over the stone of the sexual abuse of children. That may be a controversial thing to say, but in truth our society has failed its children. Whether it be the legislators, the courts, the social services, the police or any other public institution, all of us could have done more and all of us now need to do more. That is why I welcome the then Home Secretary's acknowledgement of that reality in his statement on 13 June.
	In response, I decided to consult my constituents on their opinions on the proposals for England and Wales and to ask them if they wanted the same protection for children in Scottish law. To achieve that, the Scottish Parliament would be responsible for any changes to Scottish law, and I shall return to that point in a moment.
	I consulted my constituents through a survey with a freepost reply. For the purpose of my survey, I wrote to a random selection of addresses in every part of my constituency. There are six multi-member local council wards in Lanark and Hamilton, East constituency and I wrote to some 8,000 households in those six communities. The distribution list was Lanark, 1,183 households; Carluke, 1,090; Larkhall, 1,256; Ashgill, 108; Forth, 640; Law Village, 406; Hamilton, 1,159; Uddingston, 651; Bothwell, 540; Carstairs/Carnwath, 493; and Cross Ford/ Kirkfieldbank, 471. The total is 7,997. That is eight times the number used in national opinion polls with an accuracy of plus or minus 3 per cent. I received a magnificent response to the survey. More than 1,300 peoplemore than 16 per cent. of people who were sent the surveyread the survey, answered every question, folded the answer sheet, went to the post office and posted their reply to me. I would argue that the results of the survey of my constituency are as accurate as it is possible to get.
	I shall read on to the record the questions, and the responses to them. My first question was Have you heard about the new legislation announced in the House of Commons to protect children from sex offenders? Some 68.5 per cent. of respondents said yes. The second question was Do you agree that parents or guardians should be able to request details of sex offenders in certain circumstances? and 98 per cent. of respondents said yes. The third question was Do you agree that satellite tracking should be used to monitor high risk sex offenders? to which 99 per cent. of respondents said yes. Question No. 4 was Do you think that the mandatory drug treatment should be used to reduce sexual drive in child sex offenders? and 96 per cent. of respondents said yes.
	The fifth question was Do you agree that the use of compulsory polygraph tests to ensure that child offenders are not reoffending is correct? Some 95 per cent. of respondents said yes. Question No. 6 was Do you agree that the child sex offender's conviction should be disclosed in order to protect the child? to which 97 per cent. of respondents said yes. The seventh question was Do you agree that the sex offenders register should be extended to include information on when they start relationships with a woman who has children? Some 98 per cent. of respondents said yes. My last question was Do you agree that Jim Hood MP should write to the Justice Minister asking that the legislation be introduced into Scottish law? and 97 per cent. said yes.
	In answer to my eighth question, 97 per cent. wanted the same protection for their children that children in England and Wales have, and asked me write to the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Justice to request him to provide just that. I wrote to him, providing him with the results of my survey, and I invited him to respond to the wishes of my constituents. I proposed that he and the Scottish Parliament legislate to give Scottish children the protection that is being proposed for children in England and Wales. I received a reply from the Scottish Minister, and I will refer to it in a moment, but first I want to state the very obvious: this is not a party political issue. There is no place for political gimmickry, gamesmanship, or one-upmanship in a debate on how we protect children from sex offenders. When 97 or 98 per cent. of our constituents demand more protection for their children and tell their politician to get on with it, no politician can ignore those demands.

David Hamilton: I appreciate that 97 per cent. is a phenomenal figure, but I have concerns about legislation that weighs heavily on people who volunteer to help in youth clubs and so on. Is there a way to ensure that an unnecessary amount of legislation is not put on people who wish to do good in the community by supporting young people?

Jimmy Hood: I hear what my hon. Friend says, but to be perfectly frank, in my experience the story is that the legislation is not giving enough power to communities so that they can watch out for and be protected from child sex abusers. My hon. Friend will be able to ask his question during consultation on any legislation. However, I know from my constituents' responses what they are telling methat they need more powers to protect their children.
	I turn to the Scottish Justice Minister's letter in response to my survey. First, I thank him for his detailed and informative response about the current policies in Scotland. I was pleased to note that the Scottish Executive were
	giving close consideration to the results of the Home Office review.
	However, the reply left me with a few questions that I intend to pursue with himfor example, the compulsory drug treatment of sex offenders; the right of parents and guardians to request details of sex offenders in certain circumstances; extending the sex offenders list to include when they start relationships with women who have children; and particularly, the consequences to the children in my constituency if Scotland does not have the same protection as in England and Wales.
	I fear that if we do not have the same controls for sex offenders in Scotland as in the rest of the UK, Scotland could become a refuge and hiding place for sex offenders fleeing tougher controls in England and Wales.

Dan Norris: Does my hon. Friend agree that although the public overwhelmingly support the Government proposals, there is a resistance among some police officersin fact, among some chief constables? For example, Colin Port, the excellent chief constable for Avon and Somerset, told me today that he will not apply for the pilot scheme project, despite the fact that the right hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (John Reid) told me when he was Home Secretary that there would be a pilot in my area. Does my hon. Friend accept that among police forces there is a resistance that does not reflect the true public mood and desire to deal with sex offenders in a thorough and robust way?

Jimmy Hood: There may be resistance from institutions that need to accept when we have all collectively failed to protect children better. The police force is one of those institutions from which there will be mixed responses. A  Scotland on Sunday article quoted a senior police officer as saying:
	I think our primary function is to protect children, and anything we can do to achieve that should be tried. The last thing we want is to make Scotland a soft option for paedophiles.
	My hon. Friend may be concerned about responses from the police force in his constituency, but I am sure that there are also police officers who share the views of that senior police officer in Scotland.
	I was expressing my concern that Scotland could become a haven, respite, resting place or hiding place for sex abusers. Ironically, last year Jack McConnell, the former First Minister, indicated his support for such measures for Scotland, and in an article in  The Times of 6 November, the headline read, Scottish law could drive paedophiles into England. The First Minister had gone on the record in supporting similar measures proposed by the Home Secretary on 30 June, six months before he made that statement. The irony of the situation post-30 June is that that headline in  The Times could be reversed if Scotland's children are not given the same protection as in England and Wales. It could read, Westminster laws could drive paedophiles into Scotland.
	I am sure that the Scottish Justice Minister does not want or intend that to happen. I am equally sure that the Scottish Parliament will want to give maximum protection to Scottish children, as in the rest of the UK. I was comforted today, when my office spoke to the Scottish Executive, to be advised of their awareness of the need to have the same controls on both sides of the border. I hope that the Minister can assure me that she is determined to ensure that the Home Office and the Scottish Executive are singing from the same hymn sheet and that when we legislate we have the same protection for children throughout the UK.

Maria Eagle: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton, East (Mr. Hood) on securing this debate. He has raised a tremendously important issue; the fact that some Members have remained in the Chamber to listen to him is indicative of the importance that Members in this House attach to it. He is absolutely correct to highlight it as a matter of the greatest concern, not merely on a party political basis but as something that should promote cross-party agreement in many respects.
	I commend my hon. Friend for the work that he has done in his constituency in following up work carried out in the Home Office last year at the order of the previous Home Secretary on reviewing the protection of children from sex offenders. It is clear from the figures that he gave that the work that he has undertaken among his constituents has struck a chord, and not only because of the high response rate that he was able to tell the House that he had received following the questionnaire that he circulated. I have rarely heard of a figure as high as 68.5 per cent. when constituents are asked whether they have heard about something that the House has been doing or that the Government have been doing. I must ask himperhaps he will tell me outside the Chamberwhat measures he took to try to inform his constituents beforehand, because perhaps the Government can take a leaf out of his book. It is a tremendously high figure and one that is of course very heartening for the Government to hear. Public information and awareness of such issues is often one of the most important starting points in ensuring that, as he said, we manage to improve and increase the quality and effort that we all put into protecting children from sex offenders.
	As my hon. Friend acknowledged, over the previous few years there has been much more of a recognition than ever before that dangerous sex offenders need supervision beyond merely serving the sentences that follow their criminal wrongdoing and the fact that they have been found out and convicted of sex offences. We have done much, as a Government, aimed at focusing supervision to reduce the serious potential harm that can be caused by such individuals later on in their lives having been convicted and then going on to commit further offences. Over the past years in England and Wales we have introduced a range of measures designed to protect children and the vulnerable.
	My hon. Friend is right to say that those have been introduced on an England and Wales basis because of devolution. There has been some movement forwards in Scotland, sometimes at slightly later dates, in respect of some of these advances, but they have not all been implemented at the same time and to quite the same degree. It might be helpful if I highlight some of the current differences. It is certainly the case, as he noted, that there is always the danger that differences in law between Scotland and England and Wales may lead to effects such as he mentioned, perhaps encouraging child sex offenders to be on one side of the border rather than the other.
	As my hon. Friend is well aware, all sexual offenders in the UK are required to register under the same procedures, and each jurisdiction has the ability to apply to a court for an order that will further restrict a sexual offender's behaviour if the police can demonstrate that they present a significant risk of harm. Such orders are known as sexual offender prevention orders in England and Wales and as risk of sexual harm orders in Scotland, so there is an equivalent arrangement.
	The multi-agency public protection arrangementsMAPPAestablished in England and Wales in 2001 as a result of the Criminal Justice and Courts Services Act 2000 were further strengthened by the Criminal Justice Act 2003. As my hon. Friend will also be aware, the police, the probation service and the Prison Service make up the responsible authority, which ensures that the management of sex offenders and seriously violent offenders is adequate in the respective areas. MAPPA is used to manage registered sexual offenders and violent offenders serving more than 12 months.
	In Scotland, however, MAPPA has been introduced much more recentlyonly in April 2007and currently manages only registered sex offenders. The responsible authorities in Scotland are the police, prison, criminal justice and social work services and the health service. My understanding is that Scotland plans to include violent and dangerous offenders in about 18 months' time, but it is a number of years behind England and Wales in developing these arrangements.
	There is a further difference in respect of accommodation. In England and Wales, 105 approved premises can accommodate high risk of harm level 2 and level 3 MAPPA offendersthose at the highest level of potential harm are at level 3. That includes those who have offended against children. There is no such arrangement in Scotland; rather than have approved premises, there is a national strategy on the accommodation of sex offenders. That is another slight difference.
	As my hon. Friend will know, ViSOR is a computer system used by all police forces in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as well as by the military police. It contains information on all registered sexual offenders and allows police forces to share that information. That is extremely important and helps to deal with some of my hon. Friend's points about the potential for cross-border movement among some of these people. If they feel that an eye is more likely to be kept on them in England than in Scotland, that might present some temptation to move north of the border. The fact that ViSOR is present and used by police across the whole of the UK shows that we are in a strong position to ensure that we know where these people are. That should provide my hon. Friend with some reassurance.
	Vetting and barring legislation was mentioned earlier and I would like to make it clear that the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, which establishes and seeks to implement the vetting and barring scheme and will help us to keep a much closer and up-to-date eye on those who have the capacity to cause harm to children and vulnerable adults, will be implemented in Scotland as well as in England and Wales. An equivalent arrangement will be introduced to a similar time scale to protect children by ensuring that all those who come into contact with them or vulnerable adultseither voluntarily or because they are paid to do a certain jobdo not have a history of sexual, violent or abusive behaviours. It will help to ensure that any bans can be implemented.
	There is also some equivalence in respect of sentencing. The recently introduced indeterminate public protection sentence in the Criminal Justice Act 2003 has a parallel arrangement in Scotland, where it is called the order for lifelong restriction. The aim is the same. There are some real equivalences in the cross-border effort put into trying to improve arrangements to protect children particularly from sex offenders. I hope that my hon. Friend will find some reassurance there. However, it was quite clear from the results of the survey that he set out that his constituents feel that more needs to be done.
	Despite the fact that the efforts of the past few years have meant that Britain is one of the leading countries in the management of sex offenders, we recognise that more can be done. That was certainly the aim of the review that the then Home Secretary commissioned last year in respect of the management of child sex offenders. It reported its findings on 13 June this year and set out 20 recommendations to further strengthen efforts to keep children safe. Work is now taking place to implement those recommendations. As a direct result of the review, that work is going ahead in respect of England and Wales, and the Scottish Parliament will consider parallel work.
	I was glad to hear my hon. Friend say that he has been in touchI am sure, very robustly and in detailwith the Justice Minister. To start with, when I saw my hon. Friend's survey, I thought that he might mean me, and I was trying to remember whether I had had any such letter from him. So I was relatively relieved, even though I could not remember receiving such a letter, when I realised that he was talking about the Justice Minister in the Scottish Parliament. If anyone heard a sigh of relief, that was me realising that I was off the hook. Of course, devolution has many benefits; it enables jurisdictions to make their own rules and do their own thing in many ways. It also enables Ministers in the House to sit and listen to what is effectively an argument that is really going on elsewhere.

Jimmy Hood: In my final comments, I sought the Minister's assurance that she would try to ensure that there is joined-up thinking between the Scottish Executive and our own Westminster Departments. I am alarmed to hear that there are differences and that there might not be an agreement before we start legislating to have the same powers of scrutiny on both sides of the border. Can she assure me now that either she or the Secretary of State for Justice will have urgent talks with the Scottish Executive to ensure that we have the same protection for our children both sides of the border?

Maria Eagle: I am happy to say that, for obvious reasons, it is important that we try to keep this policy developing in a way that is consistent across borders within the UK, and my predecessors who did this job at the Home Office before the creation of the Ministry of Justice and I have done just that. As the Scottish Justice Minister said in the letter that my hon. Friend quoted, significant discussions have taken place between officials from the Scottish Parliament, the Scotland Office and the Home Office.
	We certainly all aim to move forward and ensure equivalent protection. My hon. Friend makes the point that that is essential for such protection to work properly. Certainly, to the extent that we can, we have those discussions, but we have devolution and these matters are devolved to the Scottish Parliament; they are matters for it at the end of the day. I suspect that the representations that my hon. Friend makes and has set out so fully in his remarks this evening mean that those involved will be jumping even more to ensure that there are no inconsistencies between the protections north of the border and those that are in place in England and Wales and determined by my Department and the Home Office.
	I shall end as I began by congratulating my hon. Friend on the detailed and serious work that he has clearly undertaken in his constituency. Often, Members are not given the praise that they deserve for some of the detailed work that they undertake on policy and on improving its implementation on such important issues in their constituencies. That is clearly not something of which my hon. Friend can be accused, and I finish by congratulating him again on the detailed work that he has done.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Ten o'clock.